Amen.

Ivanhoe, LH, all you Catholics out there;

you should watch this film.

It is based in fact and demonstrates how your wonderful religious organisation has helped God's people in recent history.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0280653/

Originally posted by howardgee
Ivanhoe, LH, all you Catholics out there;

you should watch this film.

It is based in fact and demonstrates how your wonderful religious organisation has helped God's people in recent history.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0280653/

How long is the movie?

I like to watch long movies.

Originally posted by RBHILL
How long is the movie?

I like to watch long movies.

Long enough.

Originally posted by howardgee
Ivanhoe, LH, all you Catholics out there;

you should watch this film.

It is based in fact and demonstrates how your wonderful religious organisation has helped God's people in recent history.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0280653/

Howardgee: "It is based in fact ..."


Remember the film is based on a 1963 playwright, "Der Stellvertreter" by Rolf Hochhuth, not a scientific account or investigation of all the relevant historical facts, far from.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rolf_Hochhuth

"Rolf Hochhuth (born April 1, 1931 in Eschwege/Werra) is a German author.

Hochhuth is best known for his 1963 drama Der Stellvertreter. Ein christliches Trauerspiel (The Deputy, a Christian tragedy), a controversial work because of its criticism of Pope Pius XII. Though of little historical value, it is acknowledged as a work of considerable literary merit by some, while publisher Ed Keating and journalist Warren Hinckle, who organized a committee to defend the play as a matter of free speech, considered it "dramaturgically flawed." (If You Have a Lemon, Make Lemonade, 1974.) [The Year They Tried To Block The Deputy]

Hochhuth's next play, Soldiers, Necrology on Geneva (1967) criticizes the allied bombing campaigns as war crimes and Winston Churchill as a war criminal. It also cast doubts about the British involvement in Władysław Sikorski's death. Controversy arose in the UK when the mooted premier at Britain's National Theatre was cancelled, but the play was produced soon after in the West End. The play heavily relied on the work of the young British historian David Irving, who later became notorious as a holocaust denier. Since that time, Irving and Hochhuth have been close friends and in 2005 Hochhuth drew criticism as he defended his friend against being a holocaust denier, calling the charge "idiotic" and Iriving "an honourable man".

"The movie Amen, filmed in 2002 by Costa-Gavras, was based upon The Deputy but focused more on the true story of Kurt Gerstein, a devout Protestant and later member of the SS, who wrote an eye wittness report about the gas chambers, and after the war mysteriously died as a POW. [[1]]


You should read the following, just for starters (of course only in the case you're more interested in the truth then in political propaganda):

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Holocaust/piusdtoc.html


-860,000 lives saved - The Truth About Pius XII and the Jews.
-A Question of Judgment: Pius XII & the Jews.
-How to Manufacture a Legend: The Controversy over the Alleged Silence of Pope Pius XII in World War II.


http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Holocaust/piusdtoc.html

Originally posted by ivanhoe
[b]Howardgee: "It is based in fact ..."


Remember the film is based on a playwright, "Der Stellvertreter" by Rolf Hochhuth, not a scientific account or investigation of all the relevant historical facts, far from.

You should read the following, just for starters (of course only in the case you're more interested in the truth then in political ...[text shortened]... us XII in World War II.


http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Holocaust/piusdtoc.html[/b]

They should make a movie about how Pope Pius XII opposed Hitler and saved the lives of almost a million Jews; I love fantasies!

EDIT: From your own source: http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/anti-semitism/pius.html

Throughout the Holocaust, Pius XII was consistently besieged with pleas for help on behalf of the Jews.

In the spring of 1940, the Chief Rabbi of Palestine, Isaac Herzog, asked the papal Secretary of State, Cardinal Luigi Maglione to intercede to keep Jews in Spain from being deported to Germany. He later made a similar request for Jews in Lithuania. The papacy did nothing.(5)

Within the Pope's own church, Cardinal Theodor Innitzer of Vienna told Pius XII about Jewish deportations in 1941. In 1942, the Slovakian charge d'affaires, a position under the supervision of the Pope, reported to Rome that Slovakian Jews were being systematically deported and sent to death camps.(6)

In October 1941, the Assistant Chief of the U.S. delegation to the Vatican, Harold Tittman, asked the Pope to condemn the atrocities. The response came that the Holy See wanted to remain "neutral," and that condemning the atrocities would have a negative influence on Catholics in German-held lands.(7)

In late August 1942, after more than 200,000 Ukrainian Jews had been killed, Ukrainian Metropolitan Andrej Septyckyj wrote a long letter to the Pope, referring to the German government as a regime of terror and corruption, more diabolical than that of the Bolsheviks. The Pope replied by quoting verses from Psalms and advising Septyckyj to "bear adversity with serene patience."(8)

On September 18, 1942, Monsignor Giovanni Battista Montini, the future Pope Paul VI, wrote, "The massacres of the Jews reach frightening proportions and forms."(9) Yet, that same month when Myron Taylor, U.S. representative to the Vatican, warned the Pope that his silence was endangering his moral prestige, the Secretary of State responded on the Pope's behalf that it was impossible to verify rumors about crimes committed against the Jews.(10)

Wladislaw Raczkiewicz, president of the Polish government-in-exile, appealed to the Pope in January 1943 to publicly denounce Nazi violence. Bishop Preysing of Berlin did the same, at least twice. Pius XII refused.(11)

Originally posted by no1marauder
They should make a movie about how Pope Pius XII opposed Hitler and saved the lives of almost a million Jews; I love fantasies!

EDIT: From your own source: http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/anti-semitism/pius.html

Throughout the Holocaust, Pius XII was consistently besieged with pleas for help on behalf of the Jews.

In the spring of 19 ...[text shortened]... nce Nazi violence. Bishop Preysing of Berlin did the same, at least twice. Pius XII refused.(11)

Do these quotes prove the Church did NOT save more than 800.000 Jewish people ?


Could you give the exact link where you got the quotes from ?

Forget it, I found it: http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/anti-semitism/pius.html

You simply pushed the link in "See also Pope Pius XII and the Holocaust for the case against the Pope's behavior during the war."


..... and simply ignored the facts that speak in his advantage. What kind of a lawyer are you, marauder ? Aren't you willing to look at the evidence that speaks FOR him ?

Originally posted by ivanhoe
Do these quotes prove the Church did NOT save more than 800.000 Jewish people ?


Could you give the exact link where you got the quotes from ?

I did but from some reason it goes back to the homepage. If you look at the Graham article Maufacturing a Legend etc. etc. there's a link in the introductory paragraph to Pope Pius and the Holocaust by Shirenberg. Go there and there's the article which I quoted at length, in context and verbatim.

EDIT: http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/anti-semitism/pius.html

The article's author is Shira Schoenberg and it is heavily footnoted with supporting references.

Originally posted by ivanhoe
Do these quotes prove the Church did NOT save more than 800.000 Jewish people ?


Could you give the exact link where you got the quotes from ?

Forget it, I found it: http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/anti-semitism/pius.html

You simply pushed the link in "See also [b]Pope Pius XIIand the Holocaust for the case against the Pope ...[text shortened]... rauder ?



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------[/b]

I cut and pasted the ENTIRE SECTION Cries for Help. There's worse later on in the article. Do you want me to cut and paste some more?

Originally posted by no1marauder
I cut and pasted the ENTIRE SECTION Cries for Help. There's worse later on in the article. Do you want me to cut and paste some more?

You're being too eager again, marauder. Without hesitation and without reading the main article, you connected to the case against Pius XII. I understand your zeal, but please answer my very relevant questions from my previous post first. You can always post the rest of the case against Pope Pius XII later.

Originally posted by ivanhoe
You're being too eager again, marauder. Without hesitation and without reading the main article, you connected to the case against Pius XII. I understand your zeal, but please answer my very relevant questions from my previous post first. You can always post the rest of the case against Pope Pius XII later.

I read the other articles in their entirety except the middle one which is quite long. Basically, they are justifications for Pius XII refusing to make a public condemnation of the Holocaust. Is that all ya got, Ivanhoe?

Originally posted by no1marauder
I read the other articles in their entirety except the middle one which is quite long. Basically, they are justifications for Pius XII refusing to make a public condemnation of the Holocaust. Is that all ya got, Ivanhoe?

I'll try again.
Here goes:

1. Do the quotes you gave prove the Church did NOT save more than 800.000 Jewish people ?


You simply and eagerly pushed the link in "See also Pope Pius XII and the Holocaust for the case AGAINST the Pope's behavior during the war." ..... and simply ignored the facts that speak in his advantage. What kind of a lawyer are you, marauder ?

2. Aren't you willing to look at the evidence that speaks FOR him ?



Marauder: "Is that all ya got, Ivanhoe?"

I've got more than you can ashew, marauder.

Please be so kind to answer the above two questions.

Originally posted by howardgee
Long enough.

does long enough mean like 3 hours?

Originally posted by ivanhoe
I'll try again.
Here goes:

[b]1. Do the quotes you gave prove the Church did NOT save more than 800.000 Jewish people ?


You simply and eagerly pushed the link in "See also Pope Pius XII and the Holocaust for the case AGAINST the Pope's behavior during the war."

..... and simply ignored the facts that speak in his advantage. What k ...[text shortened]... e got more than you can ashew, marauder.

Please be so kind to answer the above two questions.[/b]

I believe it's up to the Church to prove that it somehow saved 860,000 Jews during the Holocaust. The articles you cite give no evidence that they did so unless you are arguing that 860,000 more would have been killed IF the Pope had actually publically condemned the Holocaust, which he refused to do. I would regard such a claim as absurd on its face.

I read the three articles and there's very little there to show the Pope did anything of consequence. Cut and paste something from the articles that supports your thesis since you cited them. I suspect you didn't actually read them.

Originally posted by no1marauder
I suspect you didn't actually read them.

If ivanhoe actually read all of the articles that he posts here, he wouldn't have time to formulate his conspiracy theories. If they were out to get you, you probably wouldn't do much reading either.

Originally posted by howardgee
Long enough.

"Extremely heavy-handed, almost comically repetitious, and way too long."
-- Jon Popick, PLANET SICK-BOY


http://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/amen/