Amen.

Originally posted by no1marauder
You act like a petulant 5-year old. You obviously have no answer to the facts presented in the Schoenberg article, so you are reduced (as usual) to your crybaby complaining about how unfair other people's "tactics" of presenting facts you don't like are. I'm wise to your game, Ivanhoe.

The above is more evidence for my claim you have a manipulative way of debating.

Originally posted by ivanhoe
Here is my criticism again in case you don't manage to find the post in question:


I criticise your style of debate because it is not aimed at the truth, but on scoring points. Your whole style of debate is contaminated with efforts trying to manipulate. You very often try to divert to side-issues in a desperate effort to direct the argument away from ...[text shortened]... ising the other is as vulnerable as you are. It is time to become a responsible adult, marauder.

You can spam the same post over and over and over again if you like; it's pretty obvious you are trying to deflect the thread away from the issue of Pope Pius XII's actions (or more accurately, inactions) during the Holocaust. You made an absurd claim that the Pope saved 860,000 Jews that I assume even you know is false. All your harping about your childish vendetta against me doesn't change the facts, does it, Ivanhoe?

Originally posted by no1marauder
You can spam the same post over and over and over again if you like; it's pretty obvious you are trying to deflect the thread away from the issue of Pope Pius XII's actions (or more accurately, inactions) during the Holocaust. You made an absurd claim that the Pope saved 860,000 Jews that I assume even you know is false. All your harping about your childish vendetta against me doesn't change the facts, does it, Ivanhoe?

Oh please marauder, I simply don't want a pissing match with you. I am not trying to change the subject. I am telling you why I do not wish to debate you.

A trick that can be added to your impressive repertoire of manipulating tricks and fallacies:

Accuse your opponent of performing the tricks you are performing yourself and accuse your opponent of performing the manipulating behaviour he is openly criticising in your behaviour, which you do not wish to address for obvious reasons, in order to confuse the issue at hand and in order to get your friends to believe and repeat these allegations in order to win some more points. The more you repeat a lie, the more it will become true ...... and don't you dare to accuse me of doing this, because everybody of good will can check my criticism by reading your posts in all the threads here on the RHP forums.

You started to play your insulting and manipulative repertoire, now accept the consequenses and bugger off.

Originally posted by ivanhoe
in order to win some more points.

What authority issues these points, and what do you suppose no1 redeems them for?

According to the Wikipedia article on Pope Pius XII, the Vatican in 1999 formed a commision consisting of 3 Catholic and 3 Jewish scholars to investigate the actions of the Pope during the Holocaust. In 2001 they issued a preliminary report (at http://www.jcrelations.net/en/?id=759) which asked 47 questions, all of which were coupled with requests for access to Vatican records that would address these issues, including what specific knowledge Pius had, what his response was to specific reports of atrocities forwarded to him by Church officials, his relations with murderous fascist regimes like that in Croatia and Rumania, etc. etc. etc. According to Wikipedia, the Vatican refused to cooperate with the Commission by granting access to the relevant documents and the commission disbanded later in 2001 wihout issuing a final report. Apparently they had took their job a little too seriously when the Vatican wanted a whitewash.

Do you have any response to these facts or can we merely expect another whining post about my "tactics"?

International Catholic-Jewish Historical Commission
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The International Catholic-Jewish Historical Commission was a body appointed by the Holy See's Commission for Religious Relations with the Jews in 1999. With three Jewish and three Catholic historians, the goal of the group was to study the way the Church reacted to the Holocaust. In October of 2000, the group issued a preliminary report raising a number of questions about existing data, in their introduction to their report, they stated:

Many scholars, from the 1960s to the present, have taken seriously the mandate for historical objectivity and have written balanced accounts (albeit in many cases still critical of the Holy See). Others appear to have simply assumed that a particular allegation, if deemed to be damaging to Pius XII's reputation, must therefore be true. Still others, reacting to the charges against the Pope, have developed apologetical defenses, some of which are highly polemical. As a result, there have developed over the years increasingly contentious portraits, both condemnatory and adulatory, of a man whose office, the papacy, is revered by many as a sacred institution.

In 2001, after failing to gain access to the Vatican archives after 1923, the group disbanded amid controversy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Catholic-Jewish_Historical_Commission

Originally posted by no1marauder
[b]International Catholic-Jewish Historical Commission
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.
Jump to: navigation, search
In 2001, after failing to gain access to the Vatican archives after 1923, the group disbanded amid controversy.

Why can't the American Bar Association disband amid all the controversy happening today?....God knows there's more controversy in today's courtrooms, and the 9th circuit court "circus" than hookers on a Friday night in Las Vegas during the Saudi Royal Family's annual post-Ramadan whoring/gambling/feasting festival......🙄

Originally posted by chancremechanic
Friday night in Las Vegas during the Saudi Royal Family's annual post-Ramadan whoring/gambling/feasting festival......🙄

When is that this year? I usually like to make it up there for that.

Originally posted by DoctorScribbles
When is that this year? I usually like to make it up there for that.

LOL...I think it was last week or two weeks ago...mark your calandar for next year!!!

Bump for Ivanhoe, Lucifershammer or anyone else to comment on the Vatican's actions in refusing to cooperate with the International Catholic-Jewish Historical Commision they named in 1999 to investigate the Church's actions during the Holocaust.

Originally posted by Halitose
I'm gonna add 'red herring' to your already impressive repertoire of great rebuttals.

how is this a red herring?

1. The Spanish inquisition tortured many people to death.
2. The Spanish inquisition was condoned by the Catholic church.
3. The (Roman-Catholic) Church is the most staunch and consistent
advocate of the Sanctity of Life notion.

If you cannot see that 1 and 2 imply the falsehood of 3, then you really are hopelessly lost.
The same goes to the 2 morons who recced your nonsensical post.

Originally posted by no1marauder
Bump for Ivanhoe, Lucifershammer or anyone else to comment on the Vatican's actions in refusing to cooperate with the International Catholic-Jewish Historical Commision they named in 1999 to investigate the Church's actions during the Holocaust.

...tumble weed rolling.....

...silence.....

...very reminiscent of the Catholic Church's response to the holocaust!!!

Originally posted by no1marauder
According to the Wikipedia article on Pope Pius XII, the Vatican in 1999 formed a commision consisting of 3 Catholic and 3 Jewish scholars to investigate the actions of the Pope during the Holocaust. In 2001 they issued a preliminary report (at http://www.jcrelations.net/en/?id=759) which asked 47 questions, all of which were coupled with requests for ac ...[text shortened]... e any response to these facts or can we merely expect another whining post about my "tactics"?

This, for starters:

http://www.zenit.org/english/archive/0010/ZE001027.html#item9

He continued, "They came to Rome for three days and presented 47 questions. I had the text with the questions 15 days before the meeting. I prepared 47 dossiers, answering each one of the questions with vast and solid documentation. I was heard by the commission for three and a half hours Oct. 24 in the morning.

... Father Gumpel continued: "If they [the commission members] wished to have a wide discussion, and give us the possibility to provide exhaustive answers to each question, the time fixed by them was insufficient. However, we have had utmost willingness, but the commission decided not to know all the answers.

Originally posted by lucifershammer
This, for starters:

http://www.zenit.org/english/archive/0010/ZE001027.html#item9

He continued, "They came to Rome for three days and presented 47 questions. I had the text with the questions 15 days before the meeting. I prepared 47 dossiers, answering each one of the questions with vast and solid documentation. I was heard by the commi ...[text shortened]... we have had utmost willingness, but the commission decided not to know all the answers.

Interesting quote:

"I find the conduct of the international, historical Judeo-Catholic commission disloyal to the Holy See, academically unacceptable and incorrect," Father Gumpel said.

Why should an independent, fact finding body be "loyal" to the Holy See?

As Father Gumpel's meeting with the Commission predated the release of the preliminary report, you have not answered why the Vatican refused to the allow the Commission access to the documents relevant to the 47 questions requested in the preliminary report. Do you have any response to that question?

Originally posted by lucifershammer
This, for starters:

http://www.zenit.org/english/archive/0010/ZE001027.html#item9

He continued, "They came to Rome for three days and presented 47 questions. I had the text with the questions 15 days before the meeting. I prepared 47 dossiers, answering each one of the questions with vast and solid documentation. I was heard by the commi ...[text shortened]... we have had utmost willingness, but the commission decided not to know all the answers.

As the web site itself admits;

"ZENIT, October 27, 2000 - The World Seen From Rome"

'Seen From Rome' - Hardly likely to be objective then!