Amen.

Originally posted by no1marauder
I believe it's up to the Church to prove that it somehow saved 860,000 Jews during the Holocaust. The articles you cite give no evidence that they did so unless you are arguing that 860,000 more would have been killed IF the Pope had actually publically condemned the Holocaust, which he refused to do. I would regard such a claim as absurd on its face.
...[text shortened]... ticles that supports your thesis since you cited them. I suspect you didn't actually read them.

Stop speculating and stop dodging my questions. Please.

Originally posted by ivanhoe
"Extremely heavy-handed, almost comically repetitious, and way too long."
-- Jon Popick, PLANET SICK-BOY


http://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/amen/

So is Christman Mass at St. Peter's.

Originally posted by RBHILL
does long enough mean like 3 hours?

try following the link I posted and read about the film.

Christ, if you Bible bashers read anything else as avidly as you read the bible, then maybe you would not be so ignorant.

Originally posted by no1marauder
I answered your questions, idiot.

No, you did not.

Originally posted by ivanhoe
No, you did not.

Are you going to post any evidence supporting the ridiculous claim that Pope Pius XII saved the lives of 860,000 Jews during the Holocaust? You criticize others for their style of debate, but you blatantly refuse to support your assertions with facts. I have read your articles and cited an article from the same website that effectively demolishes your absurd claims. Whatever happened to showing people the truth, Ivanhoe?

Originally posted by ivanhoe
Do these quotes prove the Church did NOT save more than 800.000 Jewish people ?


Could you give the exact link where you got the quotes from ?

Forget it, I found it: http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/anti-semitism/pius.html

You simply pushed the link in "See also [b]Pope Pius XII and the Holocaust for the case against the Pope ...[text shortened]... a lawyer are you, marauder ? Aren't you willing to look at the evidence that speaks FOR him ?[/b]

Maybe the Catholic church did save Jewish people. Eventually. Only after it was clear such an action would be in the best interests of the Catholic church:

"any support the Pope did give the Jews came after 1942, once U.S. officials told him that the allies wanted total victory, and it became likely that they would get it. Furthering the notion that any intervention by Pius XII was based on practical advantage rather than moral inclination is the fact that in late 1942, Pius XII began to advise the German and Hungarian bishops that it would be to their ultimate political advantage to go on record as speaking out against the massacre of the Jews."

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/anti-semitism/pius.html

Originally posted by no1marauder
Are you going to post any evidence supporting the ridiculous claim that Pope Pius XII saved the lives of 860,000 Jews during the Holocaust? You criticize others for their style of debate, but you blatantly refuse to support your assertions with facts. I have read your articles and cited an article from the same website that effectively demolishes your absurd claims. Whatever happened to showing people the truth, Ivanhoe?

You will never accept evidence which is in favour of Pope Pius XII or the Church in general. You have made up your mind. He is guilty. The Church is guilty. The Roman-Catholics are guilty. Of what ? Who cares ? As long as we can accuse them, everything is all right.

Howardgee is accusing Pius XII and the Church of certain facts. It is Howardgee who is obligated to prove these allegations. If you take his side you also take this obligation upon your shoulders. Referring to a Hollywood film based on a playwright, as Howardgee did, is hardly a rational way of proceeding. Picking the rotten cherries from the bowl, like you did, isn't a rational and just way to proceed either.

If I would present a website clearly defending the Pope you would claim it is biased. If I present a site which gives reports of both sides in the argument, which I did in this thread, you claim that you found and cited "an article from the same website that effectively demolishes your absurd claims". You have found nothing, marauder, absolutely nothing. I found it.

You decided to take sides. You and howardgee are the accusers Marauder, so the two of you will have to prove the allegations, expressed in this thread's first post by Howardgee.

Originally posted by ivanhoe
You will never accept evidence which is in favour of Pope Pius XII or the Church in general. You have made up your mind. He is guilty. The Church is guilty. The Roman-Catholics are guilty. Of what ? Who cares ? As long as we can accuse them, everything is all right.

Howardgee is accusing Pius XII and the Church of certain facts. It is Howardgee who is obl ...[text shortened]... of you will have to prove the allegations, expressed in this thread's first post by Howardgee.

Clearly, Ivanhoe, you are as guilty of the behaviour which you accuse Marauder. If Marauder cites 50 articles that he feels implicates Pius, you will never acquiese...you'll simply point out some terrible anti-Catholic bias and desperately search for an article that you feel exonerates him. As likely as not, this article will be from a Catholic apologist website. There can obviously be very little settled in this manner...

Originally posted by no1marauder
Are you going to post any evidence supporting the ridiculous claim that Pope Pius XII saved the lives of 860,000 Jews during the Holocaust? You criticize others for their style of debate, but you blatantly refuse to support your assertions with facts. I have read your articles and cited an article from the same website that effectively demolishes your absurd claims. Whatever happened to showing people the truth, Ivanhoe?

Marauder: "You criticize others for their style of debate, ... "

Yes, I do. I criticise your style of debate because it is not aimed at the truth, but on scoring points. Your whole style of debate is contaminated with efforts trying to manipulate. You very often try to divert to side-issues in a desperate effort to direct the argument away from a debate that is being lost. If you do not succeed in doing so, if you are not getting your way, you start acting like a petulant child. Insults and other personal attacks start flying over the forums.
You often succeed in completely undermining the original debate. You often try to picture your opponent as an extremist, a fanatic, a delusional idiot, while in reality it is you who takes the extremist stance and it is you who is often denying reality. Your false analogies, of which you claim they do not exist, and your straw men are notorious.
One of your favorite strategies, and I've seen you perform this trick succesfully many many times, is to bring your opponent in a position wherein you present a position and force your opponent to refute it. Very clever. You can lay back and simply wipe away everything your opponent presents to you. Easy points ..... in your immature way of thinking.

I pointed out your numerous fallacies on more than one occasion. You don't have to inform me that you do not accept my criticism. Of course you don't.

Your annoying insults and other personal attacks are just a minor part of your manipulating style. Your style is soaked in innuendo, distortions of the way the debate is developing, unacceptable and dominating attempts of steering the debate away from the questions you cannot or are unwilling to answer. Your debating style is soaked in constant provocations, little lies and blatant lies, easy to spot for the unbiased, mature and able spectator. You would be thrown off every self respecting academic debating forum if you would try to participate in one.

You lack the capacity or the willingness to understand others. You are dead to the feelings of others. You even shamelessly inform your opponent of the latter. You lack emotional integrity and intellectual objectivity. You have an annoying expectation of entitlements. These are, among others, the reasons why debates with you so often escalate and deteriorate into emotional conflicts.

It is about time marauder, you realise the above points. It is time you start realising the other is as vulnerable as you are. It is time to become a responsible adult, marauder.

Originally posted by David C
Clearly, Ivanhoe, you are as guilty of the behaviour which you accuse Marauder. If Marauder cites 50 articles that he feels implicates Pius, you will never acquiese...you'll simply point out some terrible anti-Catholic bias and desperately search for an article that you feel exonerates him. As likely as not, this article will be from a Catholic apologist website. There can obviously be very little settled in this manner...

David C: "There can obviously be very little settled in this manner...

I agree.

http://catholiceducation.org/articles/facts/fm0015.html

"In his most recent book, Hitler’s Willing Executioners, Goldhagen asserted that blame for the Holocaust should be placed on ordinary Germans and their unique brand of anti-Semitism. When contemporary historians from both sides of the Atlantic challenged him on this point, he eventually conceded that he had underestimated how factors other than anti-Semitism helped lead to the Third Reich’s crimes. “I skirted over some of this history a little too quickly,” he said. He has skirted again."

"Goldhagen’s efforts to trivialize and diminish Pope Pius XII’s famous 1942 Christmas statement and its clear denunciation of Nazi ideology are representative of the one-sided, biased approach that permeates his work. ..... etc etc etc. "


http://catholiceducation.org/articles/facts/fm0015.html


The Blame Game is an essential part of the Pius XII debate. I must say was an essential part, because most serious historians, including jewish scientists now acknowledge the fact that the Church and Pius XII, being in a very difficult position, did what could be expected under those difficult circumstances. The "Pius Wars" are in fact over and the scientific dispute has been settled in favour of Pius XII and the Church. The general public however isn't aware of this fact. The propaganda war goes on in the liberal press. Why ? Guess .....

The allegations that Pius XII was "Hitler's Pope" are simply not in line with the facts.


http://www.zenit.org/english/visualizza.phtml?sid=65134

Interview With Historian Sister Grazia Loparco. (She's a Catholic nun, so I guess what she is telling are all lies, despite the fact that she is a scientist, a historian.)

"ROME, JAN. 21, 2005 (Zenit.org).- Testimonies and documents reflect that Pius XII gave ecclesial institutions instructions to shelter and help Jews in Rome when Nazi persecution broke out during World War II."


http://www.zenit.org/english/visualizza.phtml?sid=65134

Originally posted by no1marauder
They should make a movie about how Pope Pius XII opposed Hitler and saved the lives of almost a million Jews; I love fantasies!

EDIT: From your own source: http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/anti-semitism/pius.html

Throughout the Holocaust, Pius XII was consistently besieged with pleas for help on behalf of the Jews.

In the spring of 19 ...[text shortened]... nce Nazi violence. Bishop Preysing of Berlin did the same, at least twice. Pius XII refused.(11)

Why on earth do you get recs for quoting a site which I found and presented here ? Are they blind fans of yours ? Do they follow the debate or do they simply rec whatever you post ?

Originally posted by ivanhoe
Why on earth do you get recs for quoting a site which I found and presented here ? Are they blind fans of yours ? Do they follow the debate or do they simply rec whatever you post ?

Isn't Jealousy a sin?

Originally posted by ivanhoe
Why on earth do you get recs for quoting a site which I found and presented here ? Are they blind fans of yours ? Do they follow the debate or do they simply rec whatever you post ?

You have to be kidding. The God Squad hands out recs for the most inane crap. I just tossed no1 another rec because now I can.

Originally posted by David C
You have to be kidding. The God Squad hands out recs for the most inane crap. I just tossed no1 another rec because now I can.

Unless you support Hg in one of his "anti-God Squad" tirades; a free rec for every piece of jaundiced drivel spouted.