Originally posted by dj2becker Faith. It is something that I believe can determine where we will spend eternity.
Here's the analogy:
A certain guy is wondering through the desert. This poor chap is very thirsty. He has not had anything to drink for a day or two. He is very close to death. He is on his hands and knees crawling down a dune when he spots something. It is a rundown s ...[text shortened]... he stone for the next guy who might come on the same way. he continues his journey, a happy man.
i think it's a very interesting analogy, although i have to agree that rwingett's first objection is valid, and as such i don't think it is a perfect example of faith.
one question i would have is what about the other lost thirsty people who are also wandering around the desert who don't just happen to stumble upon this one obscure run-down shack? i guess they all just die dry, parched deaths without even knowing the pump existed? seems unfair.
still, i think this analogy is an interesting thought experiment.
Originally posted by rwingett The difference is that the water proposition is testable. If you follow the instructions you will know within 35 minutes whether it is true or not. Since you have to perform some action, its a simple matter of probability assessment. You think action X has the greatest likelihood of being true. You therefore perform action X and see if it is, in fact, true. ...[text shortened]... e. If you choose to believe it as an established fact, then it falls within the realm of faith.
The difference is that the water proposition is testable. If you follow the instructions you will know within 35 minutes whether it is true or not. Since you have to perform some action, its a simple matter of probability assessment. You think action X has the greatest likelihood of being true. You therefore perform action X and see if it is, in fact, true. There is no need for faith..
But I think you missed the element of faith that I was trying to portray. I was trying to portray the element of faith where a belief is required in the unseen. If you look at my example you will see that they guy who read the letter never saw the guy who wrote it. He had to act by faith in doing what would usually be regarded as going against the most logically expected thing. He had to act in faith to see whether the guy in the letter was speaking the truth.
Faith would only come into play if the proposition is untestable. If you choose to believe it as an established fact, then it falls within the realm of faith.
I disagree. Faith can be testable. I will give you this exapmle. I read a promise in Gods word. By faith I believe that this promise is true. I do what it says and 'bingo', I find out that it is indeed true. I will use a simple example to clarify this. The Bible says "Resist the Devil and he will flee from you." By faith I believe this statement to be true. The next time the Devil bothers me, I act by faith on the words of God, and 'bingo', the Devil flees. It is by faith that I can establish a fact.
But I suppose you wouldn't know what I am talking about.😉
Originally posted by rwingett No, you are incorrect. The amount of water he found in the bottle was insufficient to sustain him. If followed the instructions and they were false he would die. If he drank the water he would die a little later. His logical choice lay in ...[text shortened]... fa with a nice big glass of water that he has poured for himself.
A more accurate example would be:
A man is sitting comfortably on his sofa at home. In his kitchen is a sink which is connected to the city water supply and in his refrigerator he has bottled water galore. He is happily reflecting on how modern science and the inventiveness of mankind has rescued his species from having to live a precarious life in the desert.
What if his comfortable home is only a mirage in the desert?
But there soon comes a knock on the door. The man answers the door and finds a christian there who tells him that he is really living in the desert and that he should accept Jesus so he can have an endless supply of water in the hereafter.
I think you got this one wrong. Actually the 'endless supply of water' begins on earth and is carried though into eternity. But the point is that the christian may have drunk of the 'enternal water' that has quenched his thirst and wishes to share it with someone else.
Of course the man declines the offer and returns to his sofa with a nice big glass of water that he has poured for himself.
And of course this glass does not quench his thirst, so he has to pour another glass, and another...
Originally posted by dj2becker The Bible says "Resist the Devil and he will flee from you." By faith I believe this statement to be true. The next time the Devil bothers me, I act by faith on the words of God, and 'bingo', the Devil flees. It is by faith that I can establish a fact.
But I suppose you wouldn't know what I am talking about.😉
Do you see him flee? How do you know it's really the Devil? How exactly is he 'bothering' you?
Do you see how this example proved absolutely nothing?
Originally posted by dj2becker I disagree. Faith can be testable. I will give you this exapmle. I read a promise in Gods word. By faith I believe that this promise is true. I do what it says and 'bingo', I find out that it is indeed true. I will use a simple example to clarify this. The Bible says "Resist the Devil and he will flee from you." By faith I believe this statement to b ...[text shortened]... faith that I can establish a fact.
But I suppose you wouldn't know what I am talking about.😉
When you say that the Devil is bothering you, do you mean an actuall voice in your head, a guy all in red with a pitchfork, or do you perhaps mean your own fears lusts and desires which pressure you do do things you don't want to do? Perhaps the only devil is yourself.
Originally posted by thesonofsaul When you say that the Devil is bothering you, do you mean an actuall voice in your head, a guy all in red with a pitchfork, or do you perhaps mean your own fears lusts and desires which pressure you do do things you don't want to do? Perhaps the only devil is yourself.
... --- ...
Before I answer your question I would like to hear from you whether you believe that a spiritual realm exists.
Originally posted by dj2becker Do you mean to say that you don't believe in a spiritual realm?
I don't believe in a spiritual realm.
Faith, by its very definition, is not verifiable.
From www.m-w.com (emphasis mine):
1 a : allegiance to duty or a person : LOYALTY b (1) : fidelity to one's promises (2) : sincerity of intentions
2 a (1) : belief and trust in and loyalty to God (2) : belief in the traditional doctrines of a religion b (1) : firm belief in something for which there is no proof (2) : complete trust
3 : something that is believed especially with strong conviction; especially : a system of religious beliefs
Originally posted by BigDoggProblem ...Faith, by its very definition, is not verifiable.
From www.m-w.com (emphasis mine):
1 a : allegiance to duty or a person : LOYALTY b (1) : fidelity to one's promises (2) : sincerity of intentions
2 a (1) : belief and trust i ...[text shortened]... ong conviction; especially : a system of religious beliefs
[/i]
I don't see anything in your definition about faith being unverifiable. It may be the case that the object of faith is unprovable - just as the man in the story could not verify if his choose is correct in advance of making it. It will be verified after he has chosen (had faith) by his death or continued life.
That is the irony of rwingett's post that the position was testable. The object of Christian faith will be verified after we die, what ever you.
But faith is "verifiable" by the actions of the one how has faith. Maybe not provable, but verifiable by the evidence of that faith - the desire to please God and love your neighbor.
Originally posted by Coletti I don't see anything in your definition about faith being unverifiable. It may be the case that the object of faith is unprovable - just as the man in the story could not verify if his choose is correct in advance of making it. It will be verified after he has chosen (had faith) by his death or continued life.
That is the irony of rwingett's post that ...[text shortened]... ut verifiable by the evidence of that faith - the desire to please God and love your neighbor.
I don't see anything in your definition about faith being unverifiable.
Verification and proof are synonymous. The definition asserts that faith is not verifiable.
But faith is "verifiable" by the actions of the one how has faith. Maybe not provable, but verifiable by the evidence of that faith - the desire to please God and love your neighbor.
Again, you can only prove that someone has faith. "Pleasing God" is far too vague to be testable. "Love your neighbor" does not imply faith. Anyone can 'love their neighbor'; it isn't necessary to be christian or even religious to do so.
Originally posted by BigDoggProblem [b]I don't see anything in your definition about faith being unverifiable.
Verification and proof are synonymous. The definition asserts that faith is not verifiable.
But faith is "verifiable" by the actions of the on ...[text shortened]... t isn't necessary to be christian or even religious to do so.[/b]
I agree that it is not proof of faith - it is only evidence of faith.
But the definition of faith you gave does not say faith is unverifiable or unprovable. It only asserts the faith is belief in something unproven.
": firm belief in something for which there is no proof "
You are confusing faith with the object of faith - the thing believed with believing.
Faith can be tested and proved and is done so every day. If you take a flight on an airplane, you prove your faith in the pilot, the plane, and possible the science of aerodynamics.
Originally posted by Coletti I agree that it is not proof of faith - it is only evidence of faith.
But the definition of faith you gave does not say faith is unverifiable or unprovable. It only asserts the faith is belief in something unproven.
": firm belief in something for which there is no proof "
You are confusing faith with the object of faith - the thing belie ...[text shortened]... he plane, and possible the science of aerodynamics.
So faith in not by definition unprovable.
dj2becker was not trying to prove that people have faith; he was trying to prove the contents of his faith were true. If we use the word 'faith' in a sentence, it can mean either a particular belief system, or it can mean the concept of faith. Simply reading the word in context should eliminate this confusion.
Originally posted by BigDoggProblem dj2becker was not trying to prove that people have faith; he was trying to prove the contents of his faith were true. If we use the word 'faith' in a sentence, it can mean either a particular belief system, or it can mean the concept of faith. Simply reading the word in context should eliminate this confusion.
I was actually giving an example of how faith works. I was trying to clarify the meaning of faith. Do you have a problem with my meaning of faith? If so, would you mind clarifying?
Originally posted by dj2becker I was actually giving an example of how faith works. I was trying to clarify the [b]meaning of faith. Do you have a problem with my meaning of faith? If so, would you mind clarifying?[/b]
I'm still waiting on a clarification of "spiritual realm." Sounds a touch like a fantasy novel, doesn't it?
An analogy of Faith
28 Apr '05 20:11
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