1. Joined
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    02 May '05 13:52
    Originally posted by thesonofsaul
    I'm still waiting on a clarification of "spiritual realm." Sounds a touch like a fantasy novel, doesn't it?

    ... --- ...
    Well, the Bible describes the spiritual realm as consisting of both good and evil, with non-corporeal spiritual beings influencing the spiritual component of our nature.

    The Bible says that the presence of evil is due to the spiritual component of our nature - something the animals do not possess. God endowed His spiritual creatures (humans and angels) with free will to love God or oppose Him. The most powerful created being (the angel Satan) rebelled and led one third of the angels into opposition against God. Those humans who oppose or ignore God follow Satan into rebellion - either consciously or unconsciously.

    http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/spiritual.html
  2. Standard membertelerion
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    02 May '05 14:004 edits
    First of all, in my opinion, there is nothing rude about Rob's objection to the analogy. I think that we should respect people's right to hold a belief, but we do not need to respect the belief itself, especially when that person presents it to us in a debate forum.

    I agree with Rob's criticism. I think the following analogy is more appropriate:

    A traveler is wandering in a desert. He is terribly thirsty and fears that he might die of dehydration. Fortunately, just then he comes upon a beautiful oasis. He can see all sorts of people splashing in the water. He is rushes over and is about to enjoy the refreshing water when three people standing a ways from the oasis call to him, "Stop! To enter the water is death."

    Naturally, the man slams on the brakes. He approaches the three, noticing their dehydrated appearance, and asks, "Did I hear you correctly? How is it death? Look at all the people playing and splashing."

    "There are alligators in that water," the three reply, "Someday the alligators will eat these people."

    "If you want to live, leave the water and go over there," says one of the three, pointing off away from the oasis. The man looks and sees a large crowd of people. They are splashing and drinking and laughing, but not in water. It seems that they are splashing and drinking sand! Looking closer, the man notices still bodies and skeletons interspersed among the crowd. Even as he takes in the bewildering spectacle, he sees a member of the crowd, who appears to be laughing deliriously, fall to the ground motionless.

    "They are drinking sand!" the traveler exclaims.

    "Yes, but that sand quenches your thirst more than all the bitter water in this oasis. Besides, remember that there are alligators in here. There are none there. Just remember: to taste the quenching sand, all you must do is believe that the sand is quenching your thirst. Even when it feels like it is killing you, believe, and your thirst will be quenched."

    The traveler is a confused, but before he can question further, another of three speaks up. "You are right, traveler. That place is nothing but ordinary sand. My companion is correct that this oasis is death, but the true quenching sand is over that way." The speaker points off in another direction.

    Looking that way, the traveler sees a similar display as before. Though the sand looks a little different there, he still notices skeletons and corpses scattered among the crowd.

    Before the traveler can question, the third person speaks. "Both of my companions have told you a falsehood. While this oasis is death, the real quenching sand is over there." The speaker points, and once again the traveler sees a similar display.

    Immediately the other two speakers protest, and within moments, the three are engaged in a violent argument about which area contains the quenching sand. Quietly, the traveler slips away and enters the oasis.

    Enjoying the life-giving water, the traveler turns to a fellow beside him. "Those three told me that this water was death."

    "I know," the man replies, "They tell everyone that. Occasionally, one of them dies of thirst, but they are always replaced by some one else. The new one will say the same thing, but point to a different area. Lay aside your fears. I have been here for years and have not witnessed any signs of an alligator."

    "How can you be absolutely certain that there is no quenching sand?" asks the traveler.

    "I'm not," replies the man with a smile, "but isn't the water lovely?"

    [edited multiple times to correct small grammatical errors]
  3. Standard memberBigDogg
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    02 May '05 16:15
    Originally posted by dj2becker
    I was actually giving an example of how faith works. I was trying to clarify the [b]meaning of faith. Do you have a problem with my meaning of faith? If so, would you mind clarifying?[/b]
    I do have a problem with your 'meaning of faith'.

    You said earlier: "The Bible says "Resist the Devil and he will flee from you." By faith I believe this statement to be true. The next time the Devil bothers me, I act by faith on the words of God, and 'bingo', the Devil flees. It is by faith that I can establish a fact."

    You claim to establish a fact by faith, but by definition, faith is believing in something that cannot be proven.
  4. Standard memberColetti
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    02 May '05 16:35
    Originally posted by BigDoggProblem
    I do have a problem with your 'meaning of faith'.

    You said earlier: "The Bible says "Resist the Devil and he will flee from you." By faith I believe this statement to be true. The next time the Devil bothers me, I act by faith on the words of God, and 'bingo', the Devil flees. It is by faith that I can establish a fact."

    You claim ...[text shortened]... t
    by faith, but by definition, faith is believing in something that cannot be proven.[/b]
    He could not logically prove the the Devil would flee, he acted on a promise in faith that the Devil would flee. And the faith proved trustworthy. So he could say his faith in this instance was validated.

    Again, the act of faith was validated. You seem to be equivocating between faith, and the object of faith.
  5. Standard memberKellyJay
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    02 May '05 17:381 edit
    Originally posted by dj2becker
    [b]The difference is that the water proposition is testable. If you follow the instructions you will know within 35 minutes whether it is true or not. Since you have to perform some action, its a simple matter of probability assessment. Y ...[text shortened]... fact.
    But I suppose you wouldn't know what I am talking about.😉
    [/b]You actually took that our of contrext, and left out the most
    important part!!

    "Resist the Devil and he will flee from you."

    You should note it is, "Submit yourselves, then, to God, Resist the
    devil and he will flee from you."

    If your not submitted to God, I doubt the devil will go anywhere you
    want him to.
    Kelly
  6. Standard membertelerion
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    02 May '05 18:41
    Originally posted by Coletti
    He could not logically prove the the Devil would flee, he acted on a promise in faith that the Devil would flee. And the faith proved trustworthy. So he could say his faith in this instance was validated.

    Again, the act of faith was validated. You seem to be equivocating between faith, and the object of faith.
    It's more like this:

    By faith, dj claims that the Devil exists.
    By faith, dj claims that the Devil was bothering him.
    By faith, dj claims that he resisted the Devil.
    By faith, dj claims that the Devil fled.


    Nothing was validated. Most likely the whole thing just occured in dj's head.
  7. Standard memberBigDogg
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    03 May '05 05:38
    Originally posted by Coletti
    He could not logically prove the the Devil would flee, he acted on a promise in faith that the Devil would flee. And the faith proved trustworthy. So he could say his faith in this instance was validated.

    Again, the act of faith was validated. You seem to be equivocating between faith, and the object of faith.
    No no. He claimed "It is by faith that I can establish a fact." You seem to be arguing that he is only trying to prove that he merely has faith, but his own words indicate otherwise.

    I might as well say that my faith in Santa Claus is valid because there are presents 'from Santa' under the tree each christmas, so I've 'proved' to myself that I have faith in Santa. Sounds rather meaningless.
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    03 May '05 20:091 edit
    Originally posted by BigDoggProblem
    No no. He claimed "It is by faith that I can establish a fact." You seem to be arguing that he is only trying to prove that he merely has faith, but his own words indicate otherwise.

    Yes, you are correct. It is by faith that I can establish a fact, i.e., because I posess faith. By the way, how can you prove me wrong if you have no faith?
  9. Standard membertelerion
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    03 May '05 20:18
    Originally posted by dj2becker
    Yes, you are correct. It is by faith that [b]I can establish a fact, i.e., because I posess faith. By the way, how can you prove me wrong if you have no faith?[/b]
    Dude, you're in your own little imaginary world.
  10. Standard memberfrogstomp
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    03 May '05 20:21
    Originally posted by telerion
    It's more like this:

    By faith, dj claims that the Devil exists.
    By faith, dj claims that the Devil was bothering him.
    By faith, dj claims that he resisted the Devil.
    By faith, dj claims that the Devil fled.


    Nothing was validated. Most likely the whole thing just occured in dj's head.
    Or ,,,was put there!
  11. Standard memberBigDogg
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    03 May '05 21:38
    Originally posted by dj2becker
    Yes, you are correct. It is by faith that [b]I can establish a fact, i.e., because I posess faith. By the way, how can you prove me wrong if you have no faith?[/b]
    Your statement is contradictory, so you prove yourself wrong.
  12. Standard memberColetti
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    03 May '05 21:50
    Originally posted by BigDoggProblem
    Your statement is contradictory, so you prove yourself wrong.
    Wrong.
  13. Standard membertelerion
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    03 May '05 22:23
    Originally posted by dj2becker
    Yes, you are correct. It is by faith that [b]I can establish a fact, i.e., because I posess faith. By the way, how can you prove me wrong if you have no faith?[/b]
    So in other words, it's true because you believe it's true, and I'll agree that it's true once I believe that it is true as well.

    dj2becker, are you interested in any of this snake oil that I'm selling?

    🙂
  14. Standard memberColetti
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    03 May '05 22:28
    Originally posted by telerion
    So in other words, it's true because you believe it's true, and I'll agree that it's true once I believe that it is true as well.

    dj2becker, are you interested in any of this snake oil that I'm selling?

    🙂
    It is just as easy to say you are deluded. Since all you believe is an illusion, you have no argument against what I believe.
  15. Standard membertelerion
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    03 May '05 23:041 edit
    Originally posted by Coletti
    It is just as easy to say you are deluded. Since all you believe is an illusion, you have no argument against what I believe.
    You quoted the wrong post, Coletti. My previous one would fit better.

    Would you mind clarifying what you mean by all that I believe is an illusion? Are you saying that the universe is an illusion? Are you saying that specific beliefs that I hold are an illusion?

    I get the point you are trying to make. Just wondering about the turn of phrase.

    BTW: You're an engineer! I sure hope you're not designing any bridges with this philosophy in mind.

    Until you reply, I'll just keep enjoying the lovely water.

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