Originally posted by Grampy BobbyI cannot answer your question if I don't know what you mean by your principal terms. That's not an "intellectual defense mechanism"; that's a fact and a very, very, very basic one.
"rfvghj67" or whatever name or label describes the basis of a child's acceptance of the reality of these three relatives in what I hoped would become an instructive metaphor. We can abort now if you have no stomach for this simple probe, essential to further inquiry. I hope we can continue unfettered by the noisy apparatus of intellectual defense mechanisms.
Based on your clarification (if we can call it that), you're using 'faith perception' to mean 'whatever...describes the basis of (the) child's acceptance...of these...relatives'. Well, then your question just becomes "Would it be fair to make the logical assumption that the empirical basis for your ancestral knowledge was preceeded by one of whatever it is that describes the basis of your acceptance of the existence of these relatives?" That just sounds like a stupid question, like asking if one's basis for knowing P is preceded by one's basis for knowing P. Surely you mean to ask something else. So, again, what's 'faith perception'?
Originally posted by LemonJello"So, again, what's 'faith perception'?" (LemonJello)
I cannot answer your question if I don't know what you mean by your principal terms. That's not an "intellectual defense mechanism"; that's a fact and a very, very, very basic one.
Based on your clarification (if we can call it that), you're using 'faith perception' to mean 'whatever...describes the basis of (the) child's acceptance...of these...relat Surely you mean to ask something else. So, again, what's 'faith perception'?
"There are three basic systems of perception (means of learning) among humanity."
"There is the approach of EMPIRICISM, that is, learning by scientific means, experimentation, and by using our human senses (touch, taste, sight, sound, smell). Atheists foolishly use this method of perception when trying to prove or disprove the existence of God. Though God can be seen through Empiricism, through the world around us, this witness of God is easy to explain away. You cannot study God empirically and reach any lasting and positive conclusions.
There is the approach of Rationalism, a system of perception that studies things then reaches conclusion by logic alone. Rationalism focuses along the lines of "I think, therefore I am". Yet Rationalism is a poor system of perception to use in learning about God for it is rooted in the finite. God is infinite, high above man. Rationalism can prove that there had to be a Creator, for all higher reason must have a higher Source, yet Rationalism is too firmly rooted in humanism to be effective.
Finally, there is the approach of Faith. This is an absolute system of perception because all other systems of perception have their basis in Faith. No one can learn a vocabulary without faith. Higher mathematical theory started out as faith. When Einstein proposed E=MC2 he had no absolute proof of this theory, but his faith in it caused him to seek to prove that theory as true.
1 Corinthians 2:14 "But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned."
The "natural man" or unsaved person cannot hope to learn all there is to know about God. You may have a sort of "God Consciousness" before you are saved - history has proved the existence of such a consciousness, an inner knowledge that there is a God - but this God consciousness cannot help you understand who God really is. God has predetermined that Faith is the means of perception by which He will reveal Himself to man:
Hebrews 11:6 "But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him."
And unless you start out knowing God by Faith, specifically by Faith in Jesus Christ, you will never truly know God. There has been a lot of anger directed toward Evangelical Christians lately because we tell others that faith in Jesus is the only way to knowledge of God. Even some Christians have proposed that we "draw back in the interest of religious unity" and not speak the Gospel to Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Mormons, and so forth. "Why rock the boat?" we are told. Yet if you are a Christian you know that Jesus said:
John 8:19 "Then said they unto him, Where is thy Father? Jesus answered, Ye neither know me, nor my Father: if ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also."
.. that you can only know the Father by knowing Him. And you know that Jesus said:
John 14:6 "Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me."
These are not our words, but the words of Jesus. Christianity without Christ is just religion, and useless at that. You cannot take Jesus out of the Gospel message, regardless at to whose feelings it hurts, and still have the Gospel. Further, you can use rationalism and empiricism to learn more about God AFTER you have come to Him by Faith in Christ, but Faith must be your root. For, you see, we can only understand God by revelation from God, and we can only accept the revelation that God has given us by Faith.
Normal Christian Life: Faith, Christian Faith, is a system of perception that accepts an established criteria (the Bible) as its basis of reality. This has been the definition of Christian Faith from its start in Christ, up until just a few decades ago. In recent times the Church has become infiltrated with apostate thought that sets rationalism, empiricism, and humanism far above the integrity of the Scripture. Be aware, though, that this is apostasy, not the normal Christian life.
Faith is illustrated in the original language of the Scriptures. There are four words in the Hebrew that refer to different degrees of Faith.
1. 'AMEN, from Hebrew ('AMAN); refers to use faith as a foundation or a prop. The believer is to be held up by his faith - not by empiricism or rationalism, but by faith. This type of Faith is often categorized by the heathen as fanatical, but it is the Christian's way of life. It says, "I believe, therefore I stand".
2. BATACH, means "to hide for refuge, trust in, be confident or sure in". The believer in Christ must know in his heart that he can trust God with his problems. If you believed that God did the greater thing for you, gave you eternal life, then you must believe that He can do the lesser for you - protect and provide for you in this life. This type of Faith says "I believe God is able and will, for me".
3. YACHAL, means "to wait on, be patient, hope in trials". The believer in Christ must, when under the pressure of a trial, be patient and believe that God will see him through the trial. Too often we start looking for an escape hatch when a trial comes on our lives. YACHAL means to "have Faith, wait on God - He will see you through".
4. CHACAH, means "to flee to for protection, to put your trust in Someone stronger than yourself". Again, as believers we must resist the impulse to use our own means and our own strength when we are stranded in a crisis situation. If you believe in God, trust in God. CHACAH means "I will trust you, Father, no matter what. You are El-Shaddai, the Provider".
In the Greek New Testament there are three words that are used for Faith.
1. AMEN, meaning "trustworthy, truthfully". Just like its Hebrew counterpart, AMEN means that God is a sure foundation, a truthful foundation. If we put our trust in Him, we will be stabilized.
2. ELPIS, means to have "confidence in or trust in God". Too often we say, "I believe in Jesus", but then act in a way to show that our belief is not very deeply grounded in faith. ELPIS means "I KNOW You will provide, Lord, therefore I will act like it".
3. PISTEUO, means "to have faith (in, upon, or with respect to, a person or thing), i.e. credit; by implication to entrust (especially one's spiritual well-being to Christ). PISTEUO demands total trust, total belief, total commitment to Jesus, not part to Jesus and part to ourselves.
God Gets The Glory
All degrees of Faith carries with it this caveat: it is NON-MERITORIOUS. In other words, Faith places the burden squarely on God, and God gets the glory for our triumphs of Faith. Billy Graham is a wonderful, Spirit Filled man, and he would be the first to tell you that the mighty works he has done for God were done BY God. Billy would give God the glory, not himself. You can always spot a true man of God from a fraud, for the true man of God always puts the glory back on God where it belongs. Faith is non-meritorious. We trust Him, He does the work, He gets the glory.
1 Corinthians 3:5-9 "Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man? I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase. So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase. Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labor. For we are laborers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building."
God could do everything on His own, but the wonder of our Father is that He has decided that, if something is to be done on this earth, He wants to do it through His believing children. We work for Him by Faith, believe in Him by Faith, and He in turn gives us the increase. "We are laborers together with God", laboring with Him by Faith, and He is doing a mighty work in and through us when we exercise Faith in Him.
1 Peter 1:11-12 "Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow. Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into."
I can imagine the angels of Heaven watching the fall of man in the Garden of Eden. Adam eats the forbidden fruit, and as he does so Michael the Archangel turns to God and says, "Well, that's it. Time to destroy the lot, Lord, and start over". Then, to his amazement, God says "No, this was my Plan. Man will come back to Me, but I will only have him return by Faith in Me. I will have him work by Faith in Me, and I will redeem the world only by his Faith in Me.". Jesus added, "Look, Michael. Look, Gabriel. Tell all the other angels to look, and see the miraculous work that I will accomplish for man, if he but has faith in Me".
Reaching God Consciousness
There are many fine and noble specimens of man and woman on this earth. There are beautiful people, women with perfect figures, men with exquisite physiques. There are the super intelligent, those who are walking brains, and others who could take a dime and turn it into a million dollars. There are genius' and athletes, world leaders, movers and shakers. But, without Faith in Christ, they will all go to their deaths and only find hellfire and separation from God on the other side." (1 of 2)
Reaching God Consciousness
There are many fine and noble specimens of man and woman on this earth. There are beautiful people, women with perfect figures, men with exquisite physiques. There are the super intelligent, those who are walking brains, and others who could take a dime and turn it into a million dollars. There are genius' and athletes, world leaders, movers and shakers. But, without Faith in Christ, they will all go to their deaths and only find hellfire and separation from God on the other side.
Ephesians 2:8-9 "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast."
You cannot "work your way" to Heaven, for God has decreed that Faith, not Empiricism or Rationalism, will be the means to secure salvation. Faith HAD to be the only means of reaching God, because only Faith is a system of perception available to all humans regardless as to their intelligence or level of education. God is a fair God, and wanted to give all mankind an equal chance at salvation. He instilled in each human an inner God consciousness, a certain knowledge that there was Someone greater than we are.
John 7:17 "If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself."
Acts 17:26-27 "And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation; That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us"
God has promised that all people will have an opportunity to reach God consciousness sometime in their lives, and after reaching that consciousness they will be given an opportunity to accept or reject Jesus Christ by faith. Man can reach God consciousness in a variety of ways. He may have association with others, and notice that they have God consciousness, therefore there must be a God. Or he may notice that all men have natural standards of morality and law, and based on this determine that a Creator must have instilled these standards. Or he may become aware that the earth and the universe has structure and order, this making a Creator absolutely necessary - for there is no design without a Designer. God can call and make His presence known in a variety of ways, and once He makes Himself known He wants His people (those who are Christian) to reveal Who Jesus Christ is. That Jesus is the only way to Him, that Jesus is the Messiah. If we do our job, our calling by faith, this will lead others to accept Jesus Christ by faith and be saved. These new believers accept Jesus Christ (and only after this point) and begin a relationship with God, a relationship of Faith and growth.
Application of Faith: Believers, you entered a state of salvation, salvation from hell, salvation from the mediocrity of this life by Faith in Jesus Christ. Quite frankly, it is now time for you to live your life by Faith in Christ. Faith is like a muscle, and quite frankly, many Christians are so bed-ridden from compromising with the world that their Faith muscle is useless, atrophied.
Use your Faith and tell others about Jesus Christ. How will others be saved if we fail in this calling, the calling to "tell the world"? How will any come to know God if we waffle and try to stay "politically correct" to a damnable heretical humanistic ideology that says "We're all brothers and sisters at heart. Don't rock the boat, don't tell others about Jesus. The Buddhist is saved in his own way, the Mormon is saved in his own way - leave them alone". When God draws a person to God consciousness He expects us, in faith, to share Jesus with them. Let them decide either for or against Him, for or against salvation. But we, in Faith, must follow our calling. We, in Faith, must tell others about Jesus. If not, one day you'll be held accountable for your failure:
Romans 14:12 "So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God."
If you are a Christian, how are you going to explain "Well, Lord, I was just too scared to witness Christ. The peer pressure was intense, and the denomination I belonged to said to not rock the boat."? Get ready, for you will have to give an account.
1 Corinthians 15:57 "But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ."
We, in Faith, must learn to trust our Heavenly Father in the midst of trials. He saved us, who were unfit to be saved, so He will certainly take care of us in this life. I don't care how terrible your trial, I know that God can see you through that trial if you trust in Him. In my life I have nearly had my left leg torn off in a car accident, and God saw me through. I lost a child, precious an only 17 years old, two years ago, and God saw me through. I have been backbitten, maligned, hated without reason, slandered, and God saw me through every one of these situations. He is God, He is powerful, and I thank my God who gives me the victory, gives us all the victory in Christ Jesus! Approach Him in Faith, He will not fail you."
http://www.bibleteacher.org/Dm090_5.htm
(2 of 2)
Originally posted by Grampy BobbyThat was really unhelpful. As far as I can tell, nowhere in all those words does it actually provide a clear definition of 'faith perception' (or 'faith', for that matter). I would rather you simply provide a clear statement of how you intended the phrase 'faith perception' in your original hypothetical.
LemonJello, thanks for your many fine comments and questions. Please evaluate this information with eternity in mind. Since there's little more to be said on the topic of "an ancient dilemma", (by me) the conversation's effectively closed. -Bob
By the way, I cannot figure out why anyone would think 'faith' is a matter of perception. As I have already commented on these boards before, perception is factive. So, for example, if S perceives that P, then it follows that P. I don't at all think a similar thing holds for 'faith' in the normal sorts of employment of that term. For example, suppose you have two persons, S1 and S2. Is it conceivable that S1 could have genuine faith that P, while at the same time S2 has genuine faith that not-P. If yes, then in view of the law of non-contradiction, faith cannot be factive, since we cannot have both P and not-P. In fact, humorously, some theists often tell us that atheists have just as much faith (that God does not exist) as they themselves do (that God does exist). Well, then, by their very own lights, it would follow that faith is not factive and therefore not at bottom a thing of perception.
Originally posted by Grampy BobbyAs per usual, you run away just when the conversation is getting started. I see you tried a 'sonship' on him. Flood him with as much garbage information as possible except what he specifically asked for in the hope that he won't notice.
LemonJello, thanks for your many fine comments and questions. Please evaluate this information with eternity in mind. Since there's little more to be said on the topic of "an ancient dilemma", (by me) the conversation's effectively closed. -Bob
Originally posted by Grampy BobbyI'll précis that garbage for the benefit of others.
[b]"So, again, what's 'faith perception'?" (LemonJello)
"There are three basic systems of perception (means of learning) among humanity."
"There is the approach of EMPIRICISM, that is, learning by scientific means, experimentation, and by using our human senses (touch, taste, sight, sound, smell). Atheists foolishly use this method of ...[text shortened]... the other side." (1 of 2)[/b]
Empiricism: I'll believe what I can see, hear or touch.
Rationalism : I'll believe what I can logically deduce.
Faith: I'll believe anything.
Originally posted by wolfgang59+1 from me on that. Cutting though the b****cks with a scalpel.
I'll précis that garbage for the benefit of others.
Empiricism: I'll believe what I can see, hear or touch.
Rationalism : I'll believe what I can logically deduce.
Faith: I'll believe anything.
Originally posted by wolfgang59"I'll précis that garbage for the benefit of others.
I'll précis that garbage for the benefit of others.
Empiricism: I'll believe what I can see, hear or touch.
Rationalism : I'll believe what I can logically deduce.
Faith: I'll believe anything.
Empiricism: I'll believe what I can see, hear or touch.
Rationalism : I'll believe what I can logically deduce.
Faith: I'll believe anything." (wolfgang59)
'I'll cleverly précis words from gb's bothersome post for the benefit of entertaining and encouraging my following.' (rev)
Empiricism: I'll acquire information from what I can see, hear, taste, smell and touch from the day of my birth forward.
Rationalism : I'll believe what I can logically deduce and induce from the information I've acquired and remembered.
Faith: I'll selectively believe names of persons, places, things, concepts, statements. Absolute truth, always. (gb)
Originally posted by Grampy BobbySo when you say 'selectively' what do you mean? You choose at random, or you actually use 1. or 2.?
Faith: I'll selectively believe names of persons, places, things, concepts, statements. Absolute truth, always. (gb)
And what is your point, anyway? Do you think it addresses what you were asked, or was it as I suggested an attempt at obfustication to avoid answering?
Originally posted by twhiteheadSelectively. No; Yes. Yes; No.
So when you say 'selectively' what do you mean? You choose at random, or you actually use 1. or 2.?
And what is your point, anyway? Do you think it addresses what you were asked, or was it as I suggested an attempt at obfustication to avoid answering?