21 Sep '05 21:06>1 edit
Okay Tel. I see that other thread, "The Lords Name" has been hijacked beyond repair, therefore I've opened a new thread.
In making my case, there are a few basic assumptions I want to address first.
1. Why did God create humans?
2. Why create a physical dimension? (nature)
3. How did God's objectives fit within this world?
4. What is evil?
1. Why did God create humans?
1. God wants eternal fellowship with humans.
Therefore:
2a. God needed to create beings that He could love.
2b. God created beings that would likewise love Him in return.
2. Why did God create a world(nature).
I'm gonna stray off the one-liners here.
The laws of Nature which operate in defiance of human suffering and exertion seem at first sight to supply a strong argument against the goodness and power of God.
There is no reason to suppose that self-consciousness, the recognition of a being by itself as a "self", to exist except when contrasted with an "other"; a something that is not the self.
This would create a difficulty about the consciousness of God if I were a mere theist, but as a Trinitarian I believe in something analogous to 'society' that exists within the Divine being from all eternity.
The freedom of a creature must mean the freedom to choose; and choice implies the existance of things to choose between. A creature without an environment would have no choices to make, so that freedom again demands the presence to the self of something other than the self.
The minimum condition of self consciousness and freedom then, would be that the creature should apprehend God, and therefore itself as distinct from God. It is possible that such a creature exists, aware only of God and itself. If so, its freedom is simply that of making a single choice - loving God more than the self, or the self more than God. Of course a life so reduced to essentials is quite unimaginable.
As soon as we introduce the mutual knowledge of fellow-creatures, we run up against the necessity of "Nature".
Its seems like nothing would be easier than for two minds to meet and become aware of each other. I, however contend that I see no possiblity of this except in a common medium, which forms their external world or environment (Nature). Even our vague attempts to imagine such a spiritual meeting surreptitiously slip in the idea, of at least, common space and common time, to give the co- in co-existance.
If your thoughts and emotions were directly present to me, like my own, without a mark of externality or otherness, how would I distinguish them from my own? What thoughts and emotions could we begin to have without objects to think and feel about?
Nature: the medium through which the "self" experiences the "other".
3. How did God's objectives fit within this world?
1. Assumption no.1
2. Assumption no.2
3. God created Humans for the purposes stated in 1 and therefore they required a free will. Fellowship also requires an element of love. Love, however would not exist without the freedom to choose. Without free will, the humans would be merely God-directed "robots". You can program your mobile phone to say:"I love you" when you switch it on, but it has just as much love for you as your toothbrush.
4. What is evil?
1. If God created man truly seperate and free to choose his own actions, then that very creative act allows the possibility of circumstances which God deems unacceptable.
2. These cirsumstances deemed unacceptible by God are called evil.
3. Hence, if anything other than God exists, then the possibility of evil must also exist.
Therefore I contend that evil is in its essense a perversion of good.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The assumptions for now.
Just my 2 cents, feel free to bash and rebut as you wish.
In making my case, there are a few basic assumptions I want to address first.
1. Why did God create humans?
2. Why create a physical dimension? (nature)
3. How did God's objectives fit within this world?
4. What is evil?
1. Why did God create humans?
1. God wants eternal fellowship with humans.
Therefore:
2a. God needed to create beings that He could love.
2b. God created beings that would likewise love Him in return.
2. Why did God create a world(nature).
I'm gonna stray off the one-liners here.
The laws of Nature which operate in defiance of human suffering and exertion seem at first sight to supply a strong argument against the goodness and power of God.
There is no reason to suppose that self-consciousness, the recognition of a being by itself as a "self", to exist except when contrasted with an "other"; a something that is not the self.
This would create a difficulty about the consciousness of God if I were a mere theist, but as a Trinitarian I believe in something analogous to 'society' that exists within the Divine being from all eternity.
The freedom of a creature must mean the freedom to choose; and choice implies the existance of things to choose between. A creature without an environment would have no choices to make, so that freedom again demands the presence to the self of something other than the self.
The minimum condition of self consciousness and freedom then, would be that the creature should apprehend God, and therefore itself as distinct from God. It is possible that such a creature exists, aware only of God and itself. If so, its freedom is simply that of making a single choice - loving God more than the self, or the self more than God. Of course a life so reduced to essentials is quite unimaginable.
As soon as we introduce the mutual knowledge of fellow-creatures, we run up against the necessity of "Nature".
Its seems like nothing would be easier than for two minds to meet and become aware of each other. I, however contend that I see no possiblity of this except in a common medium, which forms their external world or environment (Nature). Even our vague attempts to imagine such a spiritual meeting surreptitiously slip in the idea, of at least, common space and common time, to give the co- in co-existance.
If your thoughts and emotions were directly present to me, like my own, without a mark of externality or otherness, how would I distinguish them from my own? What thoughts and emotions could we begin to have without objects to think and feel about?
Nature: the medium through which the "self" experiences the "other".
3. How did God's objectives fit within this world?
1. Assumption no.1
2. Assumption no.2
3. God created Humans for the purposes stated in 1 and therefore they required a free will. Fellowship also requires an element of love. Love, however would not exist without the freedom to choose. Without free will, the humans would be merely God-directed "robots". You can program your mobile phone to say:"I love you" when you switch it on, but it has just as much love for you as your toothbrush.
4. What is evil?
1. If God created man truly seperate and free to choose his own actions, then that very creative act allows the possibility of circumstances which God deems unacceptable.
2. These cirsumstances deemed unacceptible by God are called evil.
3. Hence, if anything other than God exists, then the possibility of evil must also exist.
Therefore I contend that evil is in its essense a perversion of good.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The assumptions for now.
Just my 2 cents, feel free to bash and rebut as you wish.