Originally posted by FreakyKBHCould you please refer me to the justice in the story of Job?
Again, the point of reference is the issue. God is love, and has created a plan for forgiveness. He is, nonetheless, unable to change His character. Here is a basic rundown of His essence:
Sovereignty
Love
Eternal Life
Righteousness
Omniscience
Ominpotence
Ominpresence
Immutability
Veracity
All of the above, guarded by
Justice
Justice is man's point of adjustment to God's divine essence.
TheSkipper
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Originally posted by StarrmanJesus being part of the Godhead, I'm not sure the distinction can be made. The love of God which Jesus taught does have a point of reference, or contact, which is God's justice.
Well, you say that the qualities of forgiveness and love which Jesus taught need a point of reference, how does this differ for god?
Look at it this way. If God's point of contact with us were His sovereignty, the choice would be His as far as who goes to heaven. He would program us; we would be automans and human freedom would not exist.
If the point of contact were His omnipotence, He would be a tyrant, and everything is accomplished by divine fiat.
If love were the point of contact, justice and righteousness would not need to be propitiated or satisfied, thus no necessity for Christ to die on the cross.
Originally posted by FreakyKBHIs there any support for your point of view in the scriptures?
Jesus being part of the Godhead, I'm not sure the distinction can be made. The love of God which Jesus taught does have a point of reference, or contact, which is God's justice.
Look at it this way. If God's point of contact with us were His sovereignty, the choice would be His as far as who goes to heaven. He would program us; we would be automans and ...[text shortened]... ld not need to be propitiated or satisfied, thus no necessity for Christ to die on the cross.
Originally posted by FreakyKBHOk then, can you describe for me the point of reference I should be viewing God from?
There are many references in the NT to the wrath of God, as well. For instance, in Hebrews, there is a reference to God skinning alive with a whip the one that He loves. Sounds pretty harsh, huh?
The difference is found in our point of reference with God. When the point of reference is maladjusted, the conclusion will be a gross misrepresntation of God ...[text shortened]... racter.
To think of God as all sweetness and light, is an example of such a misrepresentation.
TheSkipper
Originally posted by TheSkipperWhy is turning someone into a pillar of salt any different than any other death? The state of the body afterwards is inconsequential.
Fine, but parents who attempt to turn their kids into a pillars of salt ARE considered sadists, or worse. Parents who engage in extreem mental abuse such as perpatrated by God on Job and Abraham are child abusers. We are talking a whole different level of punsihement here than a spanking.
TheSkipper
I agree, from our point of view, Job's ordeal seems very harsh. True, he did end up with more than he started with, but it was not easy ordeal to go through. But then, God knew he could handle it and it's taught many people many things over the years.
What punishment of Abraham are you referrencing?
DF
Originally posted by DragonFriendYou realise, of course, that you have now just equated death and spanking, right?
Why is turning someone into a pillar of salt any different than any other death? The state of the body afterwards is inconsequential.
I agree, from our point of view, Job's ordeal seems very harsh. True, he did end up with more than he started with, but it was not easy ordeal to go through. But then, God knew he could handle it and it's taught many people many things over the years.
What punishment of Abraham are you referrencing?
DF
Yeah Job ended up with more wheat and ox (or whatever) but his family is DEAD. If your family were killed and the guitly party supplied you with way more wheat than you had before would this be reasonable to you?
It has taught many people many things over the years? I don't know my friend...all it has taught me is to not be too righteous or God and Satan may get in a pissing contest over me and then I'm screwed.
TheSkipper
Originally posted by StarrmanYou are referencing, no doubt, whether Jesus is God. Assuming this to be the case, I will respectfully decline such a debate at this point, as the issue does not directly impact the question of this thread.
Is there any support for your point of view in the scriptures?
The issue has been debated at length in other posts (although not entirely to a satisfying finish, as one of the participants simply gave up), but if you wish to tackle the veracity of the Trinity, I would likely join in on a different thread.
Originally posted by TheSkipperIf they ever do, better hope God is betting on you, not against you!
You realise, of course, that you have now just equated death and spanking, right?
Yeah Job ended up with more wheat and ox (or whatever) but his family is DEAD. If your family were killed and the guitly party supplied you with way more wheat than you had before would this be reasonable to you?
It has taught many people many things over the years? ...[text shortened]... eous or God and Satan may get in a pissing contest over me and then I'm screwed.
TheSkipper
Originally posted by FreakyKBHYou are either not making sense or I don't understand. I fully admit that the latter is more likely.
You, like me, like all of us, must adjust to God's justice first and foremost.
Are you saying I just need to get used to and/or accept what passes for "justice" in God's eyes and then and only then can I move on to further understanding?
I need to think what happened to Job is perfectly reasonable and once I have done that everything becomes clear?
Can you understand why this is difficult for me?
TheSkipper
Originally posted by FreakyKBHI wonder why would evil not be listed? In Isaiah 45:7 does not God speak through the prophet saying "I make weal and create woe"? I mean if we are truly going to take a monotheistic approach to our faith then do we not need to view Satan as an agent of God rather than his competition?
Again, the point of reference is the issue. God is love, and has created a plan for forgiveness. He is, nonetheless, unable to change His character. Here is a basic rundown of His essence:
Sovereignty
Love
Eternal Life
Righteousness
Omniscience
Ominpotence
Ominpresence
Immutability
Veracity
All of the above, guarded by
Justice
Justice is man's point of adjustment to God's divine essence.
Simply admiting that God is evil as well as a great many other things sure would explain a lot.
TheSkipper
Originally posted by TheSkipperYes, I can see the difficulty. Almost as difficult as trying to have conversations on the internet in these forums. I'll try to be more clear.
You are either not making sense or I don't understand. I fully admit that the latter is more likely.
Are you saying I just need to get used to and/or accept what passes for "justice" in God's eyes and then and only then can I move on to further understanding?
I need to think what happened to Job is perfectly reasonable and once I have done that everything becomes clear?
Can you understand why this is difficult for me?
TheSkipper
Our first point of reference with God is His justice, and cannot be one of His other essences first, for (what will become) obvious reasons.
God has no trouble keeping His attributes straight. He is never compromised by them, nor are the attributes compromised by each other. When dealing with sinful, fallen man--- even more when He blesses us--- God does not lower Himself to our imperfection, thus detroying His perfection. How? One attribute stands guard over all the rest, in His dealings and in all that He does toward imperfect creatures.
In dealing within the Trinity, there is no concern for safeguarding, as all members share the same essence, and therefore no possibility of compromise of integrity. In dealing with Himself, God is free to regard His personality as most important.
In dealing with man, however, there is close to unlimited opportunity for compromise. Man violates God's character just by existing. As such, God's righteousness must be guarded, first and foremost. A couple of verses to ponder: Psalm 72:2; 105:7; I Chronicles 16:14.
God evaluates all mankind from His justice, both now and forever. This holds true for both believer and unbeliever. God's judgement of all sins of the unbeliever on the cross comes from His divine justice, just as does the believer's discipline. Same Source for both.
Originally posted by TheSkipperWe'll get to that.
I wonder why would evil not be listed? In Isaiah 45:7 does not God speak through the prophet saying "I make weal and create woe"? I mean if we are truly going to take a monotheistic approach to our faith then do we not need to view Satan as an agent of God rather than his competition?
Simply admiting that God is evil as well as a great many other things sure would explain a lot.
TheSkipper
Originally posted by FreakyKBHAn em-dash is constructed with two strokes, not three. You may include a space on either side or omit it, but do not include a space on one side and exclude it on the other.
fallen man--- even more when He blesses us--- God does not
fallen man--even more when He blesses us--God does not
or
fallen man -- even more when He blesses us -- God does not