1. Gangster Land
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    17 Feb '06 14:59
    How does the perception of a wrathful, OT God align with the Christian assertion of a loving God?

    I have been thinking about this one for years and while my liberal theology allows me the freedom to simply dismiss much of the OT as allegorical and the ravings of lunatics I know that many of you are unwilling to do that. So how do you answer the question?

    TheSkipper
  2. Subscriberhuckleberryhound
    Devout Agnostic.
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    17 Feb '06 15:08
    Originally posted by TheSkipper
    How does the perception of a wrathful, OT God align with the Christian assertion of a loving God?

    I have been thinking about this one for years and while my liberal theology allows me the freedom to simply dismiss much of the OT as allegorical and the ravings of lunatics I know that many of you are unwilling to do that. So how do you answer the question?

    TheSkipper
    I finds the "wrath of God" God a lot more palatable than the "lovey dovey" God. It explains away most of the questions i have about christianity, and just sounds more real (wrathful God? wrathful creation). The Jesus/Devil duality thing takes God into a paradox that raises more questions than it solves.


    That is my opinion
  3. Joined
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    17 Feb '06 15:11
    Originally posted by TheSkipper
    How does the perception of a wrathful, OT God align with the Christian assertion of a loving God?

    I have been thinking about this one for years and while my liberal theology allows me the freedom to simply dismiss much of the OT as allegorical and the ravings of lunatics I know that many of you are unwilling to do that. So how do you answer the question?

    TheSkipper
    Look at the parent child relationship. Why does a parent spank a child? Not because the parent is a sadist, but to teach the child a lesson that benefits the child. Most of the OT wrath is in the same form, it's done out of love to teach a nation a lesson.

    DF
  4. Standard memberDavid C
    Flamenco Sketches
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    17 Feb '06 15:13
    Originally posted by TheSkipper
    How does the perception of a wrathful, OT God align with the Christian assertion of a loving God?
    Isn't that explained by the "New Covenant", or something? You know, God was mean, cruel and demanded sacrifice, but then he sent himself in the person of his Son to be killed by us, and now he's a kitten who loves everybody and plays with balls of yarn. Apparently, being crucified tends to mellow you out.

    Why does this feel like a non-sequitur? Judges, can we get a ruling?
  5. Gangster Land
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    17 Feb '06 15:17
    Originally posted by huckleberryhound
    I finds the "wrath of God" God a lot more palatable than the "lovey dovey" God. It explains away most of the questions i have about christianity, and just sounds more real (wrathful God? wrathful creation). The Jesus/Devil duality thing takes God into a paradox that raises more questions than it solves.


    That is my opinion
    Really? I find the God that turned Lot;s wife into a pillar of salt for "looking back" to be not only scary but morally bankrupt.

    The God that gets into a chest bumping contest with satan resulting in Job getting totally screwed does not sound like the God I want to worship.

    Now, on the other hand, the God of the NT seems to have some very admirable qualities mostly personified through his son but it gets weird thinking of him as the same god from the OT. It is almost as if somewhere between the OT and the NT God went from puberty to adulthood.

    I don't get it...

    TheSkipper
  6. Gangster Land
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    17 Feb '06 15:191 edit
    Originally posted by DragonFriend
    Look at the parent child relationship. Why does a parent spank a child? Not because the parent is a sadist, but to teach the child a lesson that benefits the child. Most of the OT wrath is in the same form, it's done out of love to teach a nation a lesson.

    DF
    Fine, but parents who attempt to turn their kids into a pillars of salt ARE considered sadists, or worse. Parents who engage in extreem mental abuse such as perpatrated by God on Job and Abraham are child abusers. We are talking a whole different level of punsihement here than a spanking.

    TheSkipper
  7. Standard memberKellyJay
    Walk your Faith
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    17 Feb '06 15:24
    Originally posted by TheSkipper
    How does the perception of a wrathful, OT God align with the Christian assertion of a loving God?

    I have been thinking about this one for years and while my liberal theology allows me the freedom to simply dismiss much of the OT as allegorical and the ravings of lunatics I know that many of you are unwilling to do that. So how do you answer the question?

    TheSkipper
    Wrathful, or loving, you don't think it is the same one?

    I suppose wrathful to those that love their sin and don't want to
    walk with God is the only way to look at God, while those that see
    their sin and need for forgiveness, find the same God loving.
    Kelly
  8. Gangster Land
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    17 Feb '06 15:33
    Originally posted by KellyJay
    Wrathful, or loving, you don't think it is the same one?

    I suppose wrathful to those that love their sin and don't want to
    walk with God is the only way to look at God, while those that see
    their sin and need for forgiveness, find the same God loving.
    Kelly
    Ok...but what was Job's sin? What did Abraham do that was so bad that God needed to convince him that he needs to sacrifice his own son; only to then tell him it was all a big mind game?

    If god stuck to killing evil people I could buy your story but it seems he liked to screw around with people that were trying to honestly do their best. It is a little demoralising to find that I can live the best life I can (like Job) only to get royally screwed because God can't control himself when satan taunts him. Seriously, in that story both Job and satan come off looking much better than God...at least in my view.

    TheSkipper
  9. Territories Unknown
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    17 Feb '06 15:37
    Originally posted by TheSkipper
    How does the perception of a wrathful, OT God align with the Christian assertion of a loving God?

    I have been thinking about this one for years and while my liberal theology allows me the freedom to simply dismiss much of the OT as allegorical and the ravings of lunatics I know that many of you are unwilling to do that. So how do you answer the question?

    TheSkipper
    There are many references in the NT to the wrath of God, as well. For instance, in Hebrews, there is a reference to God skinning alive with a whip the one that He loves. Sounds pretty harsh, huh?
    The difference is found in our point of reference with God. When the point of reference is maladjusted, the conclusion will be a gross misrepresntation of God's character.
    To think of God as all sweetness and light, is an example of such a misrepresentation.
  10. Joined
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    17 Feb '06 15:39
    Originally posted by FreakyKBH
    To think of God as all sweetness and light, is an example of such a misrepresentation.
    Isn't that the crux of Jesus' teaching; that god is all loving and forgiving?
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    17 Feb '06 15:473 edits
    Sheila: Kyle, we wanna tell you about the book of Job. It's a story from the Bible.
    Kyle: I've had enough of the Bible. What has it gotten me?
    Gerald: Oh, I think you'll see differently after hearing this. Sit down, Kyle. [Kyle gets cross, and Gerald corrects himself] Uh, okay. [begins the story. A Middle Eastern scene appears] You see, Job lived in the east of Jordan a long long time ago. [camera pans across the landscape and rests behind a man in a red robe and long gray hair] Job was a great man. He was blessed with ten lovely children [they come out of a building with their mother], a wonderful wife, and many friends. [his friends show up to join the family behnd Job, a proud and happy man]
    Sheila: [a shot of Job petting a bull] He was godly, and a good man, and fed the poor. [Job brings a bag of food to a woman with three kids next to her. One of them, a girl, walks up, and her mother hands her a loaf of bread]
    Gerald: He was the most upright and honorable of men, and every day he praised God. [Job falls to his knees in praise, as his shepherds look on]
    Sheila: But one day, Satan went up to heaven and talked to God.
    Kyle: [still mad] Satan talked to God?
    Sheila: Yes, in the book of Job, Satan talks to God. And God says to Satan, "Have you seen Job? He is a great man, and he praises me every day."
    Gerald: But Satan said, "Oh yeah? He only praises you because you gave him so much. If you didn't give him those things, he would curse your name."
    Sheila: To which God said, "Oh yeah? I'll show you, Satan! I'll take those things away from Job and he will still praise my name."
    Gerald: And so, God had a bunch of barbarians come in and slaughter Job's oxen and donkeys, and murder all his workers. [that scene is shown]
    Sheila: Then God sent his fireballs from the sky and killed his sheep and the rest of his employees. [meteorites rain down and destroy the fields and workers there, as well as the sheep]
    Gerald: And then, as Job's sons and daughters were eating, God sent a mighty wind to collapse the house and crush and kill them all. [the palm trees bend low as the winds pick up, then the two-story house collapses as the palm trees are swept away by the winds, and Job's family dies]
    Sheila: Job was terribly sad, but he fell to his knees and said, "The Lord giveth, and the Lord taketh away," and praised God's name. [Job falls to his knees and prays to God.]
    Gerald: So then, Job got painful sores all over his body. [shown, with the burning fields behind him]
    Sheila: He was in terrible, miserable pain all day, every day. But he still kept his faith. [another shot of Job among the dead, then a close-up of Job with his sores]
    Gerald: God said to Satan, "See? I told you. Job still praises me." [all that is heard after that is the sound of the heart monitor attached to Kyle.]
    Kyle: [a few seconds later] And that's it? That's the end?
    Sheila: Basically.
    Kyle: That's the most horrible story I've ever heard. Why would God do such a horrible thing to a good person just to prove a point to Satan?
    Gerald: Oh. Uhhh, I don't know.
    Kyle: Then I was right. Job has all his children killed, and Michael Bay gets to keep making movies. There isn't a God.
  12. Territories Unknown
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    17 Feb '06 15:48
    Originally posted by Starrman
    Isn't that the crux of Jesus' teaching; that god is all loving and forgiving?
    Again, the point of reference is the issue. God is love, and has created a plan for forgiveness. He is, nonetheless, unable to change His character. Here is a basic rundown of His essence:
    Sovereignty
    Love
    Eternal Life
    Righteousness
    Omniscience
    Ominpotence
    Ominpresence
    Immutability
    Veracity
    All of the above, guarded by
    Justice

    Justice is man's point of adjustment to God's divine essence.
  13. Joined
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    17 Feb '06 15:51
    Originally posted by FreakyKBH
    Again, the point of reference is the issue. God is love, and has created a plan for forgiveness. He is, nonetheless, unable to change His character. Here is a basic rundown of His essence:
    Sovereignty
    Love
    Eternal Life
    Righteousness
    Omniscience
    Ominpotence
    Ominpresence
    Immutability
    Veracity
    All of the above, guarded by
    Justice

    Justice is man's point of adjustment to God's divine essence.
    And tell me, how did you come to be so aware of god's qualities? And, assuming you know god enough to be able to say that tis is so, are not these qualities (ignoring the omni-- set for the moment) also affected by point of reference?
  14. Territories Unknown
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    17 Feb '06 15:53
    Originally posted by Starrman
    And tell me, how did you come to be so aware of god's qualities? And, assuming you know god enough to be able to say that tis is so, are not these qualities (ignoring the omni-- set for the moment) also affected by point of reference?
    Study, of course. What do you mean by the qualities being affected by POR?
  15. Joined
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    17 Feb '06 15:55
    Originally posted by FreakyKBH
    Study, of course. What do you mean by the qualities being affected by POR?
    Well, you say that the qualities of forgiveness and love which Jesus taught need a point of reference, how does this differ for god?
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