And Equal Time for the Gap Theory

Originally posted by RJHinds
There is nothing unethical about using a quote from someone to show where they are being inconsistent or even wrong. What you are referring to is quoting out of context, which atheist do all the time with the Holy Bible. So if one uses a quote in a way that suggests that the author meant something different than what he was trying to state, then that would be "quote mining", right?

that's not really true. christians quote mine the bible to come up with their various contradictory dogmas.

this tradition was started by the fictional jesus christ character and his cohorts. they quote mined the old testament regularly to give christ legitimacy.

Originally posted by VoidSpirit
<sigh> there are two major groups in american politics. the conservatives (obama and camp) and the bat-guano crazy rightists (those who call themselves conservatives).

In UK politics Obama would be considered centre right, and could potentially be a member of
either the Conservative or Labour parties.

In the USA he gets labelled a 'pinko-commie' by the right.

There seems to be in the USA a small but highly motivated/funded/organised section of society
that wants to turn the USA into a theocracy. (RJHinds being example A)

The amount of suffering and stupidity generated by these people is to me both horrifying and
incomprehensible.

I can understand the reasons only from an intellectual/technical perspective, in that I can see all
the logical fallacies and delusions to which they have fallen prey. But I can't empathise or
understand their position emotionally, I can't comprehend how they think like that.

They worry me not just because I care about the people they harm in the USA and abroad,
but also because they are trying to export these mindsets to other countries, including mine.

Originally posted by googlefudge
There seems to be in the USA a small but highly motivated/funded/organised section of society
that wants to turn the USA into a theocracy. (RJHinds being example A)

There are also some other worrying aspects to the opposition to Obama.
Many people object to him simply because hes black, but of course they cannot say so publicly.
Also, I find it really despicable that it seems that the republicans have deliberately sabotaged the economy in the hope of getting him out.
Of course the real problem is he was so popular (especially internationally) and has no easy to target flaws, so his opposition has always had to rely on the most ridiculous lies (claims that he is foreign, Muslim or communist) but such tactics although surprisingly effective with some Americans simply backfires with others.

Originally posted by twhitehead
There are also some other worrying aspects to the opposition to Obama.
Many people object to him simply because hes black, but of course they cannot say so publicly.
Also, I find it really despicable that it seems that the republicans have deliberately sabotaged the economy in the hope of getting him out.
Of course the real problem is he was so popular ...[text shortened]... t such tactics although surprisingly effective with some Americans simply backfires with others.

Actually Obama has plenty of targetable flaws...

The trouble is they are generally targetable flaws From The Left.

Which are not viable weak points for attacking him from the far right because they have
exactly the same faults or are even worse.

Obama would (in a sane country) expect to be attacked and vulnerable from the liberals and
the left.

However what he actually faces are attacks from the off the deep end right and the lunacy
brigade.

Originally posted by VoidSpirit
that's not really true. christians quote mine the bible to come up with their various contradictory dogmas.

this tradition was started by the fictional jesus christ character and his cohorts. they quote mined the old testament regularly to give christ legitimacy.

What I said is truly, truly true. 😏
HalleluYah !!! Praise the Lord!

Originally posted by googlefudge
http://freethoughtblogs.com/aronra/2012/06/28/excerpts-from-the-texas-gop-platform/

I like his header, Science doesn't know everything. Religion knows NOTHING. (My emphasis).

Originally posted by sonhouse
I like his header, Science doesn't know everything. Religion knows NOTHING. (My emphasis).

The freethought website is another one for the Atheists viewpoint. They will lie to you rather than admit religion may have any answers to life's questions. You must beware of all these false teachers that Satan has working for him.

Originally posted by RJHinds
The freethought website is another one for the Atheists viewpoint. They will lie to you rather than admit religion may have any answers to life's questions. You must beware of all these false teachers that Satan has working for him.

And the pot called the silverware black... (also an Aaron Quote)

Originally posted by sonhouse
I like his header, Science doesn't know everything. Religion knows NOTHING. (My emphasis).

Oh sh !t, that is scary. To think I live in a state next to these nutjobs. 😞

Knowledge-Based Education – We oppose the teaching of Higher Order Thinking Skills (HOTS) (values clarification), critical thinking skills and similar programs that are simply a relabeling of Outcome-Based Education (OBE) (mastery learning) which focus on behavior modification and have the purpose of challenging the student’s fixed beliefs and undermining parental authority.

Unbelievable. 😞

Originally posted by SwissGambit
Oh sh !t, that is scary. To think I live in a state next to these nutjobs. 😞

Knowledge-Based Education – We oppose the teaching of Higher Order Thinking Skills (HOTS) (values clarification), critical thinking skills and similar programs that are simply a relabeling of Outcome-Based Education (OBE) (mastery learning) which focus on behavior modific ...[text shortened]... llenging the student’s fixed beliefs and undermining parental authority.

Unbelievable. 😞

Yeah, and what pisses me off (apart from the fact that I feel sorry for everyone who has to suffer
this kind of stuff wherever they are and angry at the idiots promoting it) is that it's getting
imported over here and getting a rubber-stamp of approval.

http://leavingfundamentalism.wordpress.com/2012/04/19/what-is-accelerated-christian-education/

http://leavingfundamentalism.wordpress.com/2012/06/25/accelerated-christian-education-validated-by-uk-government-agency/

http://leavingfundamentalism.wordpress.com/2012/05/07/top-5-lies-told-by-accelerated-christian-education/

Originally posted by VoidSpirit
i have presented to you 6 solid distortions/outright lies in a 3 minute video segment. your response to this is to join hinds and defend his distortions and even add distortions yourself by siding with hinds in suggesting dyson might be agnostic while at the same time admitting you know nothing about dyson and refusing to research the dyson on the intern g with you and for my part, this discussion is over. i'll let the evidence speak for itself.

at the same time admitting you know nothing about dyson and refusing to research the dyson on the internet (it will take about 30 seconds to discover that dyson is a christian and has written books and articles on the subject).

Your points were weak.
And I have been reading stuff on Dyson.

We've had a electircal blackout in this area for days. No PC, no electricity, no Air Conditioner.

Just got our power back yesterday. Now as I recall your slanders against Dr. Hugh Ross came off more like some face saving excuses for twisting other's words, which I saw nothing of in any case you made.

Read some stuff on the Mathematician Dyson. Interesting man. I am looking for some kind of Self Confessional. What does he say about his own beliefs?

Nothing sneaky or dishonest in either of those links I gave about "Why The Universe is the Way it Is" .

I see some opinions exrpressed which I know would infuratiate someone like you. I see nothing sneaky, dishonest, or shaddy in any of that discussion.

Originally posted by jaywill

at the same time admitting you know nothing about dyson and refusing to research the dyson on the internet (it will take about 30 seconds to discover that dyson is a christian and has written books and articles on the subject).

Your points were weak.

noted and dismissed. they are very strong, solid points in support of my argument. they prove ross to be a liar.

And I have been reading stuff on Dyson.

congratulations, i hope you've discovered ross's lies concerning dyson by now.

We've had a electircal blackout in this area for days. No PC, no electricity, no Air Conditioner.

sorry to hear.

Just got our power back yesterday. Now as I recall your slanders against Dr. Hugh Ross came off more like some face saving excuses for twisting other's words, which I saw nothing of in any case you made.

you recall incorrectly and this is the second time i've had to correct your faulty recollection. the accusation of 'twisting other's words" was secondary to the main accusation of false statements which i've sufficiently shown in my 3 minute analysis despite your opinion of them being "weak"

here is my original statement, yet again:

hugh ross follows a different kind of gap theory. the kind that puts god in the knowledge gaps of science...supported by some blunt false statements and quote mining to boot.

there were several blunt false statements. you call them his opinions, but unfortunately they do not qualify as opinions. when you state that there is research that proves something and no such research exists, it is a false statement. when you call somebody who is a confessed christian an atheist, that is a false statement. 6 such false statements and distortions have been laid before you as evidence. you have not been able to explain any of them away.

Read some stuff on the Mathematician Dyson. Interesting man. I am looking for some kind of Self Confessional. What does he say about his own beliefs?

try reading some of his books. he is a confessed non-denominational christian. the kind who believes in intelligent design, an old-earth creationist not unlike hugh ross. but hugh ross needed atheists who claimed there is intelligent design in the universe, that is why he distorted stephen hawkin's views and made the outright lie about dyson.

Nothing sneaky or dishonest in either of those links I gave about "Why The Universe is the Way it Is"

I see some opinions exrpressed which I know would infuratiate someone like you. I see nothing sneaky, dishonest, or shaddy in any of that discussion.

you're being delusional. nothing infuriates me. exposing lies is not being hateful as you've suggested in the past. that they are lies is unquestionable to any impartial judge. you can only deny the evidence.

Originally posted by VoidSpirit
noted and dismissed. they are very strong, solid points in support of my argument. they prove ross to be a liar.

And I have been reading stuff on Dyson.

congratulations, i hope you've discovered ross's lies concerning dyson by now.

[quote]
We've had a electircal blackout in this area for days. No PC, no electricity, no Air Co lies is unquestionable to any impartial judge. you can only deny the evidence.

noted and dismissed. they are very strong, solid points in support of my argument. they prove ross to be a liar.

You're dismissed too.

And I have been reading stuff on Dyson.

congratulations, i hope you've discovered ross's lies concerning dyson by now.

I have told you that a person can be an apologist for religion on a sociological level, merely because of their magnanimus attitude. An Atheist or an Agnostic can be an apologist for religion.

So I have detected no lie yet.

Now as I recall your slanders against Dr. Hugh Ross came off more like some face saving excuses for twisting other's words, which I saw nothing of in any case you made.

you recall incorrectly and this is the second time i've had to correct your faulty recollection. the accusation of 'twisting other's words" was secondary to the main accusation of false statements which i've sufficiently shown in my 3 minute analysis despite your opinion of them being "weak"

Maybe it was "secondary" to you.

here is my original statement, yet again:


hugh ross follows a different kind of gap theory. the kind that puts god in the knowledge gaps of science...supported by some blunt false statements and quote mining to boot.

My main concern has been with your accusation of quote mining. Maybe you thought I should spend more time on your primary beef. But it was what you call your "secondary" character attack I am exploring.

Maybe you want me to argue about "God of the gaps". But what you want is not always what you get. At least not now you don't get that debate.

there were several blunt false statements. you call them his opinions, but unfortunately they do not qualify as opinions.

Overall, Why the Universe is the Way It Is must be a extensive argument for the fine tuning of the cosmos for the existence of advance life and God's elimination for the problem of evil in the universe. [edited]

The Reasons To Believe testable creation model has made some predictions which apparently confirm that the model has some predictive power to it.

Ross compares his testable model with those models of other scientists. They rigorously keep track on whose models have yielded successful predictions and whose have not.

Here is one layout of a comparison found in the book "More Than a Theory" (RTB stands for Reasons To Believe - Ross's organization )

The info is on page 244 , Table 16.1 Test Scores for Simple Science Predictions from 2006. The format of the table may be different as I repoduce the information in this Forum:

Fulfilled Predictions------------------
Naturalism = 1
Young Earth = 3
Theistic Evolution = 4
RTB Creation = 20

Partly Fulfilled Predictions---------------
Naturalism = 1
Young Earth = 0
Theistic Evolution = 5
RTB Creation = 1

Not yet fulfilled Predictions----------------
Naturalism = 1
Young Earth = 1
Theistic Evolution = 2
RTB Creation = 1

Partly Falsified Predictions--------------
Naturalism = 3
Young Earth = 1
Theistic Evolution = 11
RTB Creation = 0

Falsified Predictions---------------
Naturalism = 16
Young Earth = 17
Theistic Evolution = 0
RTB Creation = 0

Test Scores for Complex Science Predictions from 2006

Fulfilled Predictions------------
Naturalism =0
Young Earth = 10
Theistic Evolution = 1
RTB Creation = 27

Partly Fulfilled Predictions------------
Naturalism = 0
Young Earth = 7
Theistic Evolution = 2
RTB Creation = 16

Not yet Fulfilled Predictions-------------
Naturalism = 9
Young Earth = 11
Theistic Evolution = 25
RTB Creation = 9

Partly Falsified Predictions------------
Naturalism = 19
Young Earth = 1
Theistic Evolution = 17
RTB Creation = 0

Falsified Predictions----------
Naturalism = 24
Young Earth = 23
Theistic Evolution = 7
RTB Creation = 0

Test Scores for Social Sciences Predictions from 2006

Fulfilled Predictions-----------------
Naturalism = 0
Young Earth = 1
Theistic Evolution = 0
RTB Creation =1

Partly Fulfilled Predictions------------
Naturalism = 0
Young Earth = 1
Theistic Evolution = 1
RTB Creation = 4

Not yet Fulfilled Predictions----------------
Naturalism = 10
Young Earth = 10
Theistic Evolution = 12
RTB Creation = 10

Partly Falsified Predictions-----------------
Naturalism = 4
Young Earth = 3
Theistic Evolution = 2
RTB Creation = 0

Falsified Predictions-------------------------
Naturalism = 1
Young Earth = 0
Theistic Evolution = 0
RTB Creation = 0

The RTB Testable Creation Model comes out very well in its predictive power in comparison to the other models. So Ross's Fine Tuning view of his Creation science model is worth serious consideration. At least he's doing the real work and has a straight foward method that the few different science theories can fairly compete with each other.

Originally posted by googlefudge
Yeah, and what pisses me off (apart from the fact that I feel sorry for everyone who has to suffer
this kind of stuff wherever they are and angry at the idiots promoting it) is that it's getting
imported over here and getting a rubber-stamp of approval.

http://leavingfundamentalism.wordpress.com/2012/04/19/what-is-accelerated-christian-educ ...[text shortened]... vingfundamentalism.wordpress.com/2012/05/07/top-5-lies-told-by-accelerated-christian-education/

They're just so damn brazen, aren't they? For anyone to just come out and say "we are against teaching critical thinking"!! I am sorry to hear the madness is spreading to your country.