Originally posted by sonhouseYou are invisioning some type of world in a science fiction novel or movie. It ain't gonna happen.
What would be nice would be to send you back about 100 million years when there were dinosaurs on the Earth but no humans in sight and ask you what you thought about that.
Then take you forward in time to about 500,000 years ago when there were semi humans around, then 400K, 300K, 200 K, 100K, 50K. etc., and see what you thought about that when you see proto-humans getting closer to modern.
HalleluYah !!! Praise the Lord!
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Originally posted by RJHindsI understand.
As I was pointing out in my post script, there had to be matured trees and plants to produce fruit already, otherwise, Adam an Eve would have starved to death waiting for the planted seed to grow and bear fruit. Do you understand that point?
HalleluYah !!! Praise the Lord!
There are still some mysterious aspects of the two accounts, to me.
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Concerning the words "image" and "dominion" - I think you reply, Praise the Lord, that ---
I only see this as providing man with a sense of responsiblity and worth.
Do you think God told and intended for Adam to have dominion over that subtle lying serpent ?
If you say yes, as I think you would, then you must see that God created man to put down his enemy.
Now we go back and consider the words of Psalm 8 which is definitely a Psalm concerning creation and man's place in creation:
O Jehovah our Lord, Howexxcellent is Your name in all the earth, You who have set Your glory over the heavens!
Out of the mouths of babes and sucklings You have established strength [Sept - praise (Matt. 21:16) ] Because of Your advasaries, To stop the enemy and the avenger." (Psalm 8:1,2 RcV)
God created man to still the avenging vengeful one - that little serpent and all he represented.
God created man to stop the advasary - the subtle one opposing God from within God's kingdom.
Even the little ones, even the baby human beings are born with this on God's heart - to still the vindictive advasary Satan and to stop the revenge seeking avenger Satan.
As long as we realize that that subtle serpent was to be under the dominion of Adam we know that part of God's mandate for man was to STOP such an enemy of God. Here is where Adam failed.
Now the revenge of the avenger is the vengence Satan sought for the ruination of his past empire and glory. God had rendered that world waste and void - topsy turvy - helter skelter - wohu va-bohu.
You must be getting bored by now hearing me repeat. Maybe other readers are getting some profit in our discussion.
Now here is one reasom why I am so persistent about that expression indicating a previous violent overthrow in divine judgment. But this time I will let Mr. G.H. Pember say something about this:
According to our version, "the earth became without form, and void." This, however, is not the sense of the Hebrew, but a glaring illustration of the influences of the chaos-legend. Fuerst gives "ruin," or "desolation," as the proper meaning of the noun rendered "without form." The second word second word signifies "emptiness," then, "that which is empty"; so that in this case the authorized translation is admissible. Now these words are found together only in two other passages, in both of which they are clearly used to express the ruin caused by an out-pouring of the wrath of God.
In a prophecy oif Isaiah, after a fearful description of the fall of Idumea in the day of vengence, we find the expression "He shall stretch out upon it the line of confusion, and the stones - or, as it should be translated, the plummet - of emptiness [ (Isa. 34:11) ]. Now "confusion" and "emptiness" are, in the Hebrew, the same words as those rendered "without form, and void." And the sense is, that just as the architect makes careful use of line and plummet in order to raise the building in perfection, so will the Lord to make the ruin complete." [Earth's Earliest Ages, G.H. Pember, Kregel, pg. 31]
In Isa. 34:11 the two words are used with a picture of God carefully seeing to it that the devastation, the ruin, is thorough and extensive. He enacts this ruination with the precision of an architect measuring out with a "plummet" exactly the proper measurements for his project. I think the same applies to the usage of the word pair in Genesis 1:2
This destruction carried out by God to make that earth waste and empty was the reason that Satan and his "fired" hosts of angels and demons are the vindictive advasaries still loyal to their Avenger - Satan - the past Lucifer.
The subtle serpent was in the garden in order to seek his vengence. Adam was created to "stop the enemy and the avenger." (Psalm 8:2)
What you have is not two miscellaneous economies going along concurrently. You have the removal of one economy being replaced by another economy. (Economy meaning household management - dispensation EKONOMIA - House Rule Grk.)
You have an old Lucifer who was fired and is already Satan in full. He is being replaced by a new creature of God's heart's desire - a man capable of taking into him God Himself.
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Originally posted by jaywillI think you are trying to read more into this than is there. There is no indication in the text that the serpent was an enemy of God before the deception of Eve. It simply says the serpent was more crafty than any beast of the field that God had made. It was not until God learned of the serpents part in the sin of Adam and Eve that God showed His displeasure with the serpent.
Concerning the words [b]"image" and "dominion" - I think you reply, Praise the Lord, that ---
I only see this as providing man with a sense of responsiblity and worth.
Do you think God told and intended for Adam to have dominion over that subtle lying serpent ?
If you say yes, as I think you would, then you must t's desire - a man capable of taking into him God Himself.[/b]
The Lord God said to the serpent,
“Because you have done this,
Cursed are you more than all cattle,
And more than every beast of the field;
On your belly you will go,
And dust you will eat
All the days of your life;
And I will put enmity
Between you and the woman,
And between your seed and her seed;
He shall bruise you on the head,
And you shall bruise him on the heel.”
(Genesis 3:14-15 NASB)
It was then that enmity arose between God and the serpent and mankind, not before.
HalleluYah !!! Praise the Lord!
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Originally posted by RJHinds
I think you are trying to read more into this than is there. There is no indication in the text that the serpent was an enemy of God before the deception of Eve. It simply says the serpent was more crafty than any beast of the field that God had made. It was not until God learned of the serpents part in the sin of Adam and Eve that God showed His displeas ...[text shortened]... y arose between God and the serpent and mankind, not before.
HalleluYah !!! Praise the Lord!
I think you are trying to read more into this than is there. There is no indication in the text that the serpent was an enemy of God before the deception of Eve.
From the context of the whole Bible I don't think this was the first rebellious act commited by Satan.
Why would he not come to Eve as the glorious being that he had been created ? He had long since lost this splendor.
It simply says the serpent was more crafty than any beast of the field that God had made.
That is all Genesis 3 says. Ezekiel 28 says he was "perfect in beauty". Now he may have appeared as a pretty serpent. But he should have appeared as the splendid and beautiful anointed cherub if that had still been his status.
I am sure that by that time he had long long been cast out of that splendid office.
It was not until God learned of the serpents part in the sin of Adam and Eve that God showed His displeasure with the serpent.
I showed you from Psalm 8 that to stop the avenger and still the enemies of God was part of the reason God created man, even down to the babies - the babes.
The Lord God said to the serpent,
“Because you have done this,
Cursed are you more than all cattle,
And more than every beast of the field;
On your belly you will go,
And dust you will eat
All the days of your life;
And I will put enmity
Between you and the woman,
And between your seed and her seed;
He shall bruise you on the head,
And you shall bruise him on the heel.”
(Genesis 3:14-15 NASB)
It was then that enmity arose between God and the serpent and mankind, not before.
I don't believe that for a minute.
The presence of the two trees, especially the tree of the knowledge of good and evil suggest strongly that God placed before man's free will the choice, to follow the rebel into sin and death if he really wanted to.
You said before that the enemy of God uped the ante. This was not the first uping of the ante. The serpent speaks as though having familiarity with previous disobedience to God. He even seems to know what DEATH is.
He speaks of God as not wanting any creature to be as Gods because he himself already tried to be like the Most High and was still vengeful and hateful about the defeat.
I think Satan has already deceived the angels and is trying to ADD man to his collection of dupes.
Now tell me, the demonic locust things which are released from the abyss in Revelation 9 at the fifth trumpet, when were they created ?
Were those locusts created in the six days of Genesis ? Were they terrible monsters in Heaven ? Did God create them in the abyss after the fall of man ? If so why ?
Is God creating creatures in the abyss for Satan's use ?
Originally posted by jaywillThe word of the Lord came to me: “Son of man, take up a lament concerning the king of Tyre and say to him: ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord says:I think you are trying to read more into this than is there. There is no indication in the text that the serpent was an enemy of God before the deception of Eve.
From the context of the whole Bible I don't think this was the first rebellious act commited by Satan.
Why would he not come to Eve as the glorious being that he had b ...[text shortened]... he fall of man ? If so why ?
Is God creating creatures in the abyss for Satan's use ?
“‘You were the model of perfection,
full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.
You were in Eden,
the garden of God;
every precious stone adorned you:
ruby, topaz and emerald,
chrysolite, onyx and jasper,
sapphire, turquoise and beryl.
Your settings and mountings[d] were made of gold;
on the day you were created they were prepared.
You were anointed as a guardian cherub,
for so I ordained you.
You were on the holy mount of God;
you walked among the fiery stones.
You were blameless in your ways
from the day you were created
till wickedness was found in you.
(Ezekiel 28:11-15 NIV)
I understand this to mean He was perfect and blameless when He appeared in the garden of Eden and then wickedness was found in him when he deceived Eve. Lucifer was invisible to the innocent Eve and he had to possess the body of the serpent so she could see him.
From the lips of children and infants you have ordained praise because of your enemies, to silence the foe and the avenger.
(Psalm 8:2 NIV)
The following is what the New Testament has to say about that verse:
The blind and the lame came to him at the temple, and he healed them. But when the chief priests and the teachers of the law saw the wonderful things he did and the children shouting in the temple area, “Hosanna to the Son of David,” they were indignant.
“Do you hear what these children are saying?” they asked him.
“Yes,” replied Jesus, “have you never read,
“‘From the lips of children and infants
you have ordained praise’?”
(Matthew 21:14-16 NIV)
I beleive God made good angels and some of them became devils or demons. An angel named Lucifer, who we now call Satan, rebelled and he brought other angels with him when he was no longer one of God’s angels. Jude verse 6 talks about angels who did not stay in their proper domain but left their own home. Angels are a type of spiritual beings. When they leave their domain they become demons.
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Originally posted by RJHindsPraise the victorious Lord and Savior, our Lord Jesus Christ.
The word of the Lord came to me: “Son of man, take up a lament concerning the king of Tyre and say to him: ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord says:
“‘[b]You were the model of perfection,
full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.
You were in Eden,
the garden of God;
every precious stone adorned you:
ruby, topaz and emerald,
chrysolite, onyx and jas ...[text shortened]... . When they leave their domain they become demons.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PAHbVKa1uJ0[/b]
The word of the Lord came to me: “Son of man, take up a lament concerning the king of Tyre and say to him: ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord says:
“‘You were the model of perfection,
full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.
You were in Eden,
the garden of God;
every precious stone adorned you:
ruby, topaz and emerald,
chrysolite, onyx and jasper,
sapphire, turquoise and beryl.
Your settings and mountings[d] were made of gold;
on the day you were created they were prepared.
You were anointed as a guardian cherub,
for so I ordained you.
You were on the holy mount of God;
you walked among the fiery stones.
You were blameless in your ways
from the day you were created
till wickedness was found in you.
(Ezekiel 28:11-15 NIV)
I understand this to mean He was perfect and blameless when He [sic] appeared in the garden of Eden and then wickedness was found in him when he deceived Eve. Lucifer was invisible to the innocent Eve and he had to possess the body of the serpent so she could see him.
I believe firstly, that "Eden, the garden of God" in Ezekiel 28:13 is an Eden anterior in time to the Eden of Genesis. When I read Eden there in Ezekiel I believe this is a pre-adamic Eden.
We both agree that Satan continually ups the ante on his contraversy with God. Whereas you believe that lies of Genesis 3 are his uping the ante # 1, - the very first challenge, I think this was his uping the ante Nth time, by no means the first time.
The already established enmity between God and the serpent is strongly suggested in the dichotomy of the two trees -"the tree of life" and "the tree of the knowledge of good and evil".
God has His principle - divine and eternal life.
God causes Satan to have his principle - the knowledge of good and evil.
Ezekiel says of Lucifer "you corrupted your wisdom". The corruption of this God given wisdom is signified in "the tree of the knowledge of good and evil".
Ezekiel says of Lucifer "O you who sealed up perfection, full of wosdom ...". It is the total corruption of this great God given wisdom which is signified in "the tree of the knowledge of good and evil".
The corruption of the God bestowed wisdom warped into the path to death.
The path of the knowledge of good and evil being corrupted had already been taken by this being. He is effectively inviting man to follow him down the fateful path that he has already trod away from God. Lucifer takes what was of God and withdraws from God. I believe that being in the serpent had ALREADY partaken of the principle of the knowledge of good and evil when he corrupted his wisdom.
The past history of Lucifer is not given in Genesis. The implications of a past history, I think, are there. As with many things, at a letter time in a latter place in the Bible other important revelation is provided to us.
I understand this to mean He was perfect and blameless when He [sic] appeared in the garden of Eden and then wickedness was found in him when he deceived Eve. Lucifer was invisible to the innocent Eve and he had to possess the body of the serpent so she could see him.
Lucifer's wisdom had already been corrupted. And his perfection of beauty had already been forfieted. We see a glorious cherub sent by God to protect the way to "the tree of life" in verse 24 -
"So He drove the man out, and at the east of the garden of Eden He placed the cherubim and a flaming sword which turned in every direction to guard the way to the tree of life." (Gen 3:24)
Compare the serpent to the cherubim. If Lucifer was still perfect in beauty and sealing up the sum of wisdom and beauty he would have appeared to Adam and Eve as the glorious cherubim in 3:24. The fact that he doesn't strongly suggests both that he has lost that expression and that he comes in stealth with a evil motive.
From the very first word, deceit, villany, slander are coming out of the motive of the serpent. Vindictiveness and vengence are also manifested in his speech. His wisdom is not in the process of being corrupted. It has already been corrupted.
"You were perfect in your ways from the day that you were created, until unrighteousness was found in you." (Ezek. 28:15)
I cannot believe that this lying of the serpent was the time in which unrighteousness was first found in the anointed cherub. If this is the FIRST deception of Satan, then you are saying that the FIRST creature to be deceived by him was man. You are proposing that first Satan deceived man as his number 1 dupe. Then afterwards Satan got busy to also work on the angels of God.
I don't think this is right. I think Satan deceived the angels FIRST. And then afterwards ADDED man to his spoils of deceived beings. We cannot tell what the very first act of unrighteousness was of Lucifer. But it makes more sense to me that it was anterior to the Adam and Eve's deception.
This is why I called your view "Man is fallen, Satan is just getting started to fall" theory.
"You corrupted your wisdom by reason of your brightness" (Ezek 28:17)
When the serpent enters the brightness seems long gone already.
Lucifer does not appear as the God sent cherubim of verse 24.
When the serpent enters the wisdom seem already corrupted.
Not only is his wisdom already corrupted. But the very EMBLEM of this corrupted wisdom is embodied in the forbidden tree - "the tree of the knowledge of good and evil".
From the lips of children and infants you have ordained praise because of your enemies, to silence the foe and the avenger.
(Psalm 8:2 NIV)
The following is what the New Testament has to say about that verse:
The blind and the lame came to him at the temple, and he healed them. But when the chief priests and the teachers of the law saw the wonderful things he did and the children shouting in the temple area, “Hosanna to the Son of David,” they were indignant.
“Do you hear what these children are saying?” they asked him.
“Yes,” replied Jesus, “have you never read,
“‘From the lips of children and infants
you have ordained praise’?”
(Matthew 21:14-16 NIV)
I beleive God made good angels and some of them became devils or demons. An angel named Lucifer, who we now call Satan, rebelled and he brought other angels with him when he was no longer one of God’s angels. Jude verse 6 talks about angels who did not stay in their proper domain but left their own home. Angels are a type of spiritual beings. When they leave their domain they become demons.
Yes Jesus does allude to Psalm 8 in Matt. 21. Psalm 8 is also refered to in Hebrews 2.
And without going into too much discussion in this post, in Hebrews basically the usage of Psalm 8 is something like this -
"Now we know why Adam was created. But he failed. But we do not lose hope because we see Jesus Christ has come to fulfill all the mandate failed by Adam. We do see Jesus Christ as what God intended by human being. We do see Jesus Christ as that object of Psalm 8s analysis of the creation of man.
Man is fallen. Adam failed. But we look up because God incarnate - Jesus Christ has recovered the eternal purpose of God. And He is our new Elder Brother. "
But I hardily agree that Jesus also refers to Psalm 8 in Matthew. Of course whenever we become one with Christ we move closer to the recovery of the eternal plan for man's creation.
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Originally posted by jaywillI do not see the need for a pre-Adamic world. I believe Satan should have been minding his own business instead of God's and then he would have remained in the spirit Heaven were he belonged.
Praise the victorious Lord and Savior, our Lord Jesus Christ.
[quote] The word of the Lord came to me: “Son of man, take up a lament concerning the king of Tyre and say to him: ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord says:
“‘You were the model of perfection,
full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.
You were in Eden,
the garden of God;
every precious st closer to the recovery of the eternal plan for man's creation.
What I meant by uping the ante is that instead of just being nosey and jealous in his thoughts, he put these thoughts into Eve's mind too. He not only left Heaven to check out the Garden of Eden; but he possessed control of the dragon so he could physically appear to Eve and put rebellious thoughts in her mind. As a spirit being, I do not think Lucifer knew how to appear to Eve in any other manner, at least not at that time.
No. There is no pre-Adamic world in which another Eden was created and then destroyed as you imagine. The creation of the two trees does not mean there was a continual conflict between God and Lucifer. It is only a representation of the big choice that man must make to either obey God or follow after his own lusts and desires.
It is obvious that Eve was the first to be deceived because she was an easier prey than Adam and the other angels of God. It was only after mankind was deceived that Lucifer was able to argue to the angels that God was a liar because Adam and Eve did not die on the very day they ate the forbidden fruit. This proved Lucifer was telling the truth and God was the Liar, according to the way Lucifer would reason to the other angels.
We demolish arguments and every pretension that sets itself up against the knowledge of God, and we take captive every thought to make it obedient to Christ.
(2 Corinthians 10:5 NIV)
HalleluYah !!! Praise the Lord!
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Originally posted by RJHindsPraise the Lord indeed.
I do not see the need for a pre-Adamic world. I believe Satan should have been minding his own business instead of God's and then he would have remained in the spirit Heaven were he belonged.
What I meant by uping the ante is that instead of just being nosey and jealous in his thoughts, he put these thoughts into Eve's mind too. He not only left Heaven ...[text shortened]... t to make it obedient to Christ.
(2 Corinthians 10:5 NIV)
HalleluYah !!! Praise the Lord!
Well, I am definitely unconvinced by your model.
This is a good place to simply part ways on the matter.
Thanks for presenting your opinions. It helped crystalize my own understanding.
Grace to you.
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Originally posted by jaywillI have never been known to be a convincing fellow. Sorry about that. I am likewise unconvinced by your model. If you don't see it as a hinderance to your belief and faith in Christ then carry on.
Praise the Lord indeed.
Well, I am definitely unconvinced by your model.
This is a good place to simply part ways on the matter.
Thanks for presenting your opinions. It helped crystalize my own understanding.
Grace to you.
HalleluYah !!! Praise the Lord!
Originally posted by RJHindsYou presented your reasons pretty well.
I have never been known to be a convincing fellow. Sorry about that. I am likewise unconvinced by your model. If you don't see it as a hinderance to your belief and faith in Christ then carry on.
HalleluYah !!! Praise the Lord!
I appreciated it.
Grace to you in the Lord
Originally posted by jaywillhaving a bit of time, i went back to the OP and watched the video. it seems like a whole lot of hokey to me, trying to reinterpret the bible to answer for inconsistent parts.
Anyone else want to discuss Gap Theory with me ?
the inconsistent parts can better be explained if you consider that the bible is a loose collection of different stories from different eras and different cultures.
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Originally posted by VoidSpiritThen take it as a whole lot of hokey.
having a bit of time, i went back to the OP and watched the video. it seems like a whole lot of hokey to me, trying to reinterpret the bible to answer for inconsistent parts.
the inconsistent parts can better be explained if you consider that the bible is a loose collection of different stories from different eras and different cultures.
Your comment is too general and too negative.
I'm looking for more focused concerns.
Something specific.
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In the meantime, relax this evening and listen to an interesting interview with Dr. Hugh Ross - Phd. Astrophysicist / Creationist (the unrepentent kind)
- (not a Gap Theory guy but Old Earth )
Why The Universe Is The Way It Is Parts 1 & 2
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