1. Joined
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    19 Oct '12 05:06
    Are you an animal lover? No need to pretend to be a tough guy; come on you know you love kittens and string and dogs chasing sticks. Or do you see animals as brutal killers, selfishly persuing there own base instincts.

    Do you have a pet in your house? Does it have a name? Why?
  2. Joined
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    19 Oct '12 06:20
    Originally posted by divegeester
    Are you an animal lover? No need to pretend to be a tough guy; come on you know you love kittens and string and dogs chasing sticks. Or do you see animals as brutal killers, selfishly persuing there own base instincts.

    Do you have a pet in your house? Does it have a name? Why?
    animals, like the human animals can be brutal killers or social. sometimes they're both and that's the kind of animal i like to hang around with. my preferred animal companion is the dog. and by dog, i mean a real dog, not those lap toys they breed to ride in old lady's purses.

    i don't call my dog a pet. he is not a pet. he's a member of my pack, my family. he is loyal, fierce and a good friend. he is ready to defend our property and the other members of the pack. he will do so to the death. he goes hunting with me (at least he did when we were younger) and shares in the kill. now he's retired and takes pleasure in playing with the kids.

    he doesn't have long left now, and we will be deeply grieved when he dies. i hope i won't have to do the deed myself. it may come to that.
  3. Joined
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    19 Oct '12 12:01
    Originally posted by divegeester
    Are you an animal lover? No need to pretend to be a tough guy; come on you know you love kittens and string and dogs chasing sticks. Or do you see animals as brutal killers, selfishly persuing there own base instincts.

    Do you have a pet in your house? Does it have a name? Why?
    two dogs alfie and stella. they live in the house, lay on the sofa, sleep on the bed, steal food, puke on my carpet, chew the kids toys, eat the mail, tear my socks, fart, have bad breath, and boss me around. its all worth it just to see their waggy tails when i get in.

    i pretty much agree with voidspirit, i see my dogs as more than pets, they are part of the family. we give them names partly for communication with them and partly to anthropomorphize them.

    are dogs selfishly persuing their own base instincts? possibly, but it could be argued humans do as well.
  4. Account suspended
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    22 Oct '12 20:09
    Originally posted by divegeester
    Are you an animal lover? No need to pretend to be a tough guy; come on you know you love kittens and string and dogs chasing sticks. Or do you see animals as brutal killers, selfishly persuing there own base instincts.

    Do you have a pet in your house? Does it have a name? Why?
    I love all life, i once saved a wasp from a spiders web, I feed slugs in my back garden,
    I have a rabbit and two aquariums, one rather large 450 litre and I refuse to kill
    spiders or mice, i gave up fishing because i did not like inflicting pain on worms or fish
    and i look forward to the day when humans and animals will be at harmony again.
  5. Joined
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    22 Oct '12 20:29
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    I love all life, i once saved a wasp from a spiders web, I feed slugs in my back garden,
    I have a rabbit and two aquariums, one rather large 450 litre and I refuse to kill
    spiders or mice, i gave up fishing because i did not like inflicting pain on worms or fish
    and i look forward to the day when humans and animals will be at harmony again.
    Weren't you the one who stated that consciousness is unique to humans only? Do you or do you not think pain is a conscious state?

    By the way, how do you know the worms/fish that you handle during fishing feel pain? That's a serious question, btw. The mentality of fish is an interesting topic.
  6. Standard memberwolfgang59
    Infidel
    Dunedin
    Joined
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    45641
    22 Oct '12 20:36
    Originally posted by stellspalfie
    , have bad breath,

    Two dogs Bonnie and Bella. They live in the house, lay on a sofa (we keep the best one for humans), sleep on the bed, ... don't have bad breath ...,

    And all the family think we spoil them ....


    I've always had dogs but these are the first two I've fed exclusively on a BARF (Bones and Raw Food/Biologically Appropriate Raw Food) diet. No bad breath and beautiful teeth!
  7. Joined
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    3061
    22 Oct '12 20:37
    Originally posted by divegeester
    Are you an animal lover? No need to pretend to be a tough guy; come on you know you love kittens and string and dogs chasing sticks. Or do you see animals as brutal killers, selfishly persuing there own base instincts.

    Do you have a pet in your house? Does it have a name? Why?
    I do not have any pets currently but have in the past. The way I "see" them is that the types of animals you are talking about are moral patients. On my view, some of them would qualify as persons.
  8. Standard memberkaroly aczel
    the Devil himself
    Brisbane,QLD
    Joined
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    22 Oct '12 20:411 edit
    Originally posted by LemonJello
    Weren't you the one who stated that consciousness is unique to humans only? Do you or do you not think pain is a conscious state?

    By the way, how do you know the worms/fish that you handle during fishing feel pain? That's a serious question, btw. The mentality of fish is an interesting topic.
    ..the mentality of a fish is an interesting topic....Nemo??? ... the mentality of a fish is an interesting topic 🙂

    I had an ex who called 'em 'floating meals' because of their so called 5 second memory (theorizing that because of that they wouldn't suffer as much as other animals so it was not as harmful to eat them).
    I disagree, but there are so many ways people justify eating animals when the reality is they (for the most part) are just satysfying that little square inch of their tounge for flavour. Nothing more.

    Yeah, I love animals, but the ways humans treat them is sometimes rather apalling.
  9. Account suspended
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    22 Oct '12 20:514 edits
    Originally posted by LemonJello
    Weren't you the one who stated that consciousness is unique to humans only? Do you or do you not think pain is a conscious state?

    By the way, how do you know the worms/fish that you handle during fishing feel pain? That's a serious question, btw. The mentality of fish is an interesting topic.
    yes humans are conscious that they can inflict pain upon others, it appears to me to
    be the beginning of spirituality, this awareness. I was thinking about this very thing
    the other day when i was observing a hawk resting on a tree beside a loch (lake) near my
    home, when he catches a small mouse or shrew, is he really conscious that
    as he digs his talons into it and rips it apart, that he is inflicting pain? If he looked
    down upon his prey and reflected for a moment, would he be able to stare into its
    eyes and not feel some sense of remorse? I was really thinking this btw. My
    conclusion was, that he must feel no remorse or is hardened to it, by the bitter
    struggle to survive. Worms feel pain because when you put a hook into them they
    wriggle like mad, this is desirable of course as it attracts fish, a trick is to rub them
    in the soil near where you are fishing as it somehow stills them before you impale
    them with a hook, how do I know fish feel pain, well it must be painful to have a
    barbed hook pierce your lip or jaw and be dragged through the water,
    sometimes you will see small traces of blood, the worst case scenario is when the
    fish swallows the hook entirely so that not even long disgorgers will remove it from
    its stomach, this must be painful.

    I must add that we fished exclusively for game fish, salmon, trout brown/rainbow
    and sea trout, we do not consider anything like Perch and Pike as having any
    validity and are a nuisance, I tell you this because the idea is to eat the fish that one
    catches, but I don't like fresh trout or salmon so that was also a consideration
    therefore it could be construed as being a 'blood sport', in my case.
  10. Joined
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    77354
    22 Oct '12 23:23
    Originally posted by divegeester
    Are you an animal lover? No need to pretend to be a tough guy; come on you know you love kittens and string and dogs chasing sticks. Or do you see animals as brutal killers, selfishly persuing there own base instincts.

    Do you have a pet in your house? Does it have a name? Why?
    Yes I am. Our dogs name is Cody and it was his name when we got him from our neighbor. He's a mostly black 110# Lab.
  11. Standard membermenace71
    Can't win a game of
    38N Lat X 121W Lon
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    23 Oct '12 05:41
    I love animals LOL I'm no tree hugger though....I saw a skunk walk across my deck the other night. I thought it was a cat at first then I noticed it was bigger and had a white stripe LOL. I had a cool tabby cat but I had to give him to a good home when I moved and had our first kid. Cats are kinda nasty though because they #$%^ and piss all over their box and kick the litter all around then it gets in their paws then they wanna lay on your lap LOL and they are lazy!!!! LOL If I ever get a cat again it's gonna be an outside animal.


    Manny
  12. Joined
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    3061
    23 Oct '12 06:311 edit
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    yes humans are conscious that they can inflict pain upon others, it appears to me to
    be the beginning of spirituality, this awareness. I was thinking about this very thing
    the other day when i was observing a hawk resting on a tree beside a loch (lake) near my
    home, when he catches a small mouse or shrew, is he really conscious that
    as he di also a consideration
    therefore it could be construed as being a 'blood sport', in my case.
    Okay, but in no way whatsoever did that actually address my question to you.

    My point was that your view, as you have espoused it over time on this forum, is patently contradictory. You've claimed multiple times in the past that only humans are conscious; you claim on the other hand that non-humans animals experience pain. Well unfortunately, that's incoherent, since pain is a conscious state. As I've told you before, one reason why your view is so glaringly absurd is because you refuse to educate yourself on the subject of consciousness and how there can be varying levels of its manifestation, perhaps only some specific higher orders of which (if any) are unique only to humans. Unfortunately, you seem to lack some intellectual integrity on these sorts of topics, which is why in the past when I offered references for your perusal, you just ignored and scoffed at them and made lame jokes about how your rabbits are not conscious because they don't have tea parties and rap sessions with you.

    Of course, I think it is clear enough that you think your rabbits are morally considerable, so I would be interested to know what properties your rabbits possess that you think are morally relevant and contribute to this status.

    Worms feel pain because when you put a hook into them they
    wriggle like mad


    How exactly does that show that worms feel pain? That just shows that there is motor neuron firing and muscle reaction, etc, to stimuli. That doesn't actually answer the question. Anyway, I have read several different, and often conflicting, views on this question in the literature.

    how do I know fish feel pain, well it must be painful to have a
    barbed hook pierce your lip or jaw and be dragged through the water,
    sometimes you will see small traces of blood, the worst case scenario is when the
    fish swallows the hook entirely so that not even long disgorgers will remove it from
    its stomach, this must be painful.


    Of course it would be painful for you to have a hook pierced through your lip and to be dragged through the water (just ask Steve-O who I believe actually did this for one of his Jacka$$ stunts). Again, this doesn't answer the question. Again, you will find different views on this matter in the literature, if you are interested.

    I also find it somewhat strange that you say you love all life and champion the ideal of harmony with other species; but, on the other hand, you engage in fishing for sport while at the same time believing that it involves pain to the worms and fish involved.
  13. Joined
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    3061
    23 Oct '12 06:34
    Originally posted by karoly aczel
    ..the mentality of a fish is an interesting topic....Nemo??? ... the mentality of a fish is an interesting topic 🙂

    I had an ex who called 'em 'floating meals' because of their so called 5 second memory (theorizing that because of that they wouldn't suffer as much as other animals so it was not as harmful to eat them).
    I disagree, but there are so ...[text shortened]... more.

    Yeah, I love animals, but the ways humans treat them is sometimes rather apalling.
    Yeah, I love animals, but the ways humans treat them is sometimes rather apalling.

    I agree with you here.
  14. Account suspended
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    23 Oct '12 07:579 edits
    Originally posted by LemonJello
    Okay, but in no way whatsoever did that actually address my question to you.

    My point was that your view, as you have espoused it over time on this forum, is patently contradictory. You've claimed multiple times in the past that only humans are conscious; you claim on the other hand that non-humans animals experience pain. Well unfortunately, that's ort while at the same time believing that it involves pain to the worms and fish involved.
    No is not contradictory at all and your attempts to make it such are nothing short of
    a scurrilous distortion of my words. I stated that humans are conscious of the fact
    that others suffer pain, I have not stated that animals are conscious of the same
    thing, to experience pain and to be conscious of suffering in others are not one and
    the same thing are they, thus your assertions are erroneous and I will be pleased if
    you would retract them as they represent a distortion of the reality. Your usual and
    almost obligatory atheistic condescension is both banal and completely irrelevant,
    your assertions of lack of intellectual integrity are insulting and without foundation and your
    references to the past equally irrelevant. Once again whether you deliberately
    or unconsciously i cannot say, completely misunderstood or deliberately
    misrepresented my text, i will not return any insults in kind, it is not the Christian
    way and leave you to reflect on your errors.

    Again in the hope that you will understand, to experience pain and to be conscious of
    suffering in others are not one and the same thing, for example a psychopath is
    generally regarded as having no notion of the suffering that he has caused in others,
    yet prick him with a sharp utensil in the eye and one can guarantee that he shall
    almost certainly feel pain. Again if the hawk was conscious of the suffering of the
    mouse, it would be reticent at very least of sinking its talons into one and ripping it
    apart and yet it does so, with what appears to me, to be without remorse.
  15. Cape Town
    Joined
    14 Apr '05
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    52945
    23 Oct '12 09:08
    My favourite moral question with regards to animal cruelty is what to do about carnivores. Carnivores result in the painful death of their prey almost by their very existence. So by owning a cat, I am signing the death warrant of various small birds, mice, moles, mole-rats, insects etc. In some cases I even encourage it (as in the case of cockroaches).
    So should we eliminate all carnivores?
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