Originally posted by Nyxie
Am I getting through yet?
Nyxie
Whilst I am as yet undecided on my view on the matter, you need to address scriptures which oppose your views, instead of simply stating where it has been accepted. No-one is claiming (certainly none of the deciples) that women were not able of speaking in tongues, or being able to receive the Holy Spirit, the question is whether in a mixed community they should be preaching, whether they should be taking a position of leadership amongst men.
As such, perhaps you can address some of the following scriptures :
http://www.rapidnet.com/~jbeard/bdm/Psychology/eccl/women.htm
I've simply copied and pasted as the author of the site did a fair job of adding comments.
Isa 3:12 — As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths.
1 Tim 2:8-11 — I will therefore that men pray every where, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and doubting. In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array; But (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works. Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. [Men are to lead; women are to be modest, learning quietly, and in submission; in this way, they prove their claim to godliness.]
1 Tim 3:14,15; 2:11-15 — These things write I unto thee, hoping to come unto thee shortly: But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth. [What follows are God’s instructions for a woman’s functioning in the formal services of the local church, which would include Sunday School] ... Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I [Paul, as an Apostle of Jesus Christ, with full authority of one inspired by God] suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. [A woman cannot teach with authority; e.g., in Sunday School classes, Bible conferences, etc. When a woman stands before a mixed crowd that includes men and opens the Bible and preaches or teaches, she is taking authority.] For Adam was first formed, then Eve. [The woman was created after the man to be his helpmeet, not his head. Obviously, this is NOT a cultural matter, but is based upon the order of creation; this establishment of the principle of order transcends culture!] And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived [“quite deceived” (NASB—Gen. 3:13)] was in the transgression. [Therefore, the woman was not spiritually qualified to teach because of (1) the order of creation, and (2) the facts of the Fall.] Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, [i.e., she will be occupying herself with the duties of the home and family (as evidence of her salvation given through the birth of the Messiah), and will receive her fulfillment/purpose in life in that arena] if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety [“self-restraint” (NASB)].
1 Tim 5:9,10,14 — Let not a widow be taken into the number under threescore years old, having been the wife of one man, Well reported of for good works; if she have brought up children, if she have lodged strangers, if she have washed the saints’ feet, if she have relieved the afflicted, if she have diligently followed every good work. [Faithful service in “home-related” activities necessary to qualify widows to receive church support.] … I will therefore that the younger women marry, bear children, guide the house, [be the “ruler” or “despot” of the home, but under the leadership of her husband] give none occasion to the adversary to speak reproachfully.
Titus 2:3-5 —The aged women likewise, that they be in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things; [See further: women teaching “home-related” activities to younger women, not Biblical doctrine.] That they may teach [“encourage” NASB] the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children [agape love, since a person can not be “taught” to have “feelings”], To be discreet, chaste, keepers [“workers” NASB] at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, [this alone would preclude a married woman from working outside the home, because outside work necessitates her to be under someone else’s authority, man or woman, other than her own husband] that the word of God be not blasphemed.
Prov 6:20; 2 Tim 1:5; 3:15 — My son, keep thy father’s commandment, and forsake not the law of thy mother: … When I call to remembrance the unfeigned faith that is in thee, which dwelt first in thy grandmother Lois, and thy mother Eunice; and I am persuaded that in thee also. … And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. [The person teaching becomes the authority; since the parent is already the authority, as God intended it to be from creation, there is no problem in women teaching doctrine to their own children.]
1 Cor 14:33b-35,37 — As in all churches of the saints. Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law. [Not a cultural factor, but established by God thousands of years ago.] And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame [“improper” (NASB)] for women to speak in the church. [Women are to look for input and leadership from the man.] … If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.
Eph 5:18, 22-24 — And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit; ... Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord. [Can’t submit to husband if don’t submit to Christ.] For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body. Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.
1 Pet 3:1-6 — Likewise, ye wives, [same as in submissiveness to government authorities (1 Pe 2:13-17)] be in subjection to your own husbands; that, if any obey not the word, they also may without the word be won by the conversation of the wives; [God is saying that even for an unbeliever, submissiveness to God-supported authority is a hard and fast rule, not situational, circumstantial, or cultural.] ... Whose adorning let it not be that outward adorning of plaiting the hair, and of wearing of gold, or of putting on of apparel; But let it be the hidden man of the heart, in that which is not corruptible, even the ornament of a meek and quiet spirit, which is in the sight of God of great price. For after this manner in the old time [i.e., not “cultural”] the holy women also, who trusted in God, adorned themselves, [Outward adornment should not be the focal point of a woman’s life—rather her life is to emphasize godliness.] being in subjection unto their own husbands: Even as Sara obeyed Abraham, calling him lord (Gen. 18:12) [2000 years earlier; therefore, not cultural]: whose daughters ye are, as long as ye do well, and are not afraid with any amazement.
1 Cor 11:3-10 — But I would have you know, that the head [i.e., authority (Jdg. 11:10; Eph. 1:22)] of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God. [Therefore, no inferiority is implied in submissiveness, only different God-ordained roles.] Every man praying or prophesying, having his head covered, dishonoureth his head. But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth [direct revelation (which is no longer an active gift for anyone, men or women), not normal preaching/teaching (prophesying and teaching were two distinct gifts—Eph. 4:11)] with her head uncovered dishonoureth her head [an abnormal situation for woman to pray or prophesy in public, and therefore, she must have a visible sign of authority over her]: for that is even all one as if she were shaven. For if the woman be not covered, let her also be shorn: but if it be a shame for a woman to be shorn or shaven, let her be covered. For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man. For the man is not of the woman; but the woman of the man. Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man. For this cause [the created order] ought the woman to have power on her head because of the angels. [Paul again refers back to the order of creation, and that the angels are watching (Eph, 3:10), for his authority, not because of the curse of the Fall as some so-called “Biblical feminists” contend.] [Paul is speaking here of conduct in meetings outside the church; he doesn’t speak to church conduct until verse 18; 1 Cor. 6:12-11:17 deals with personal conduct outside of corporate church meetings.]
Prov 12:4; 14:1 — A virtuous woman is a crown to her husband: but she that maketh ashamed is as rottenness in his bones. ... Every wise woman buildeth her house: but the foolish plucketh it down with her hands.
Prov 31:10-31 — Who can find a virtuous woman? for her price is far above rubies. The heart of her husband doth safely trust in her, so that he shall have no need of spoil. She will do him good and not evil all the days of her life. She seeketh wool, and flax, and worketh willingly with her hands. She is like the merchants’ ships; she bringeth her food from afar. She riseth also while it is yet night, and giveth meat to her household, and a portion to her maidens. She considereth a field, and buyeth it [in order to plant and grow food for h
Another sort of religious issue
22 Feb '05 19:13
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