Originally posted by pcaspianI guess we can throw bible quotes at each other untill we just simply run out. I think I have given many examples taken from the scriptures themselves that show women holding positions of power and leadership.
Originally posted by Nyxie
[b]Because and to put this plainly, I don't see anywhere where God or jesus said that women could not lead churches. My views are therefore not in contradiction with Christianity.
Authors of the Bible claimed this. So either you reject their views based on other scriptures, or you reject their views, because they ...[text shortened]... tus of male/female relationships, I'm asking whether yours really is.
pc
Nyxie[/b][/b]
This is not about male vs female as you keep intoning. It is about equality. Jesus treated men and women the same. He preached to men and women the same. He had male and female followers. Men and women both preached about Jesus after he died. Men and women have both prophesized in his name.
I see no reason for there not to be female preachers. I have'nt seen any evidence put forth that contradicts my belief. I have presented a lot of evidence that supports my belief.
Your argument so far has been in presenting male vs female roles, and most of these have to do with old testament laws on maraige and household roles. If you think your wife should be subserviant to you because you are a man, that is your belief. When we marry we become one, an entity supported by both and becoming stronger in the twain. This does'nt sound to me like a lopsided agreement where the man holds all the descision making.
I think we are equal in all regards, men and women alike. To God we are just children. Neither of us having anymore power then what God gives us, and that is very little.
Nyxie
Originally posted by Nyxie
Deborah : a prophet a military leader and a judge, over men and women alike.
Nyxie
Nyxie, I have no problem with female prophets. I know they existed. I also know God works in unusual ways. Whilst we may use Doborah as a perfectly good example of a female leader, we don't actually know whether this is (as per examples posted) what God wanted. Put this way, Isreal on numerous occasions were severely stuffed up! They were a mess. For example, they wanted a king, God however did not want to give them a king, however because they were 'hard' of heart, he gave them a King. We can't use OT references as examples for out churches today.
Where we are currently today, I'm sure we'll all agree that it is better for a godly woman to preach to a bunch of unbelievers that for no-one to preach to them at all. The point (I believe the authors made) was that she was not lose her subservience to even those men. In other words, whilst she could discuss the word of God and indeed preach, what Paul was referring to was a more structured worship environment, ie: a modern church. Does that mean a group of 5 woman would need to stop talking about God when a man walks into the room ? No, I don't believe that was the intent. I think what the author, and any follower of the Bible would refer to is the relationship between God and man and man and woman. The 'trend' in the bible is one of man having authority, a structured relationship.
Much as I believe God's instructions for us has so far been badly distorted, I believe they were for our own good. We simply chose to use earthly wisdom, not to obey, but to use our own 'common sense' in making choices. This has worked to our detriment. I am one of following (at attempting) to follow God as closely as possible. Should I believe He requires me to worship on my knees, that is how I will worship. I don't base my view on current orthopedic studies done on this procedure. Follow without asking questions I guess, is that faith ?
I'll have a look at your other posts tomorrow and see if I can find any scriptures that support your view.
cheers
Originally posted by kirksey957
I think what the church needs today are some born-again pornstars who are on TV. What better witness to conversion and a new life. I am serious. If you have objections to this I want to know why as Jesus called all to repentence.
According to your views of Christianity, I see no reason why porn stars are not already born-again. So why the double standards ?
Originally posted by no1marauderOFFS The day that Nyxie is a sub ... I'll switch to white wine
The point (I believe the authors made) was that she was not lose her subservience to even those men.
Do you believe that you should ever lose your "subservience" to men that Pcaspian believes you should have, Nyxie?
Originally posted by kirksey957Well, unless I missed it, the above was the first post in what has become the behemoth spirituality forum.
It should be noted, kirksey was never at a loss for words following this post.
EDIT: For the record, the time stamp on that post was as follows...
21 Feb '05 15:37 :: 0 recommendations
Originally posted by FreakyKBHSo whats this 'recommend' button for exactly?
Well, unless I missed it, the above was the first post in what has become the behemoth spirituality forum.
It should be noted, kirksey was never at a loss for words following this post.
EDIT: For the record, the time stamp on that post was as follows...
21 Feb '05 15:37 :: 0 recommendations
Originally posted by FreakyKBHWow! There are some names that bring back memories! KneverKnight absolutely crushed one my early midrashic ventures (drawing on the Zohar's comments on Noah); and my wife, reading his post over my shoulder said, "Yep. He's right." Ouch! (I duly passed her confirmation on to KK, who conncluded she was indeed a wise woman...).
Well, unless I missed it, the above was the first post in what has become the behemoth spirituality forum.
It should be noted, kirksey was never at a loss for words following this post.
EDIT: For the record, the time stamp on that post was as follows...
21 Feb '05 15:37 :: 0 recommendations
And Ivanhoe started the "Spiritual Quotes" thread, which seems to have fallen before the winds of debate...
My single honor "back in the day" was to have a post recc'ed by both Ivanhoe and No.1--to their mutual chagrin. I should have retired then...
Originally posted by karoly aczelI recall back when I started on the site how it was badge of honor--- much like how many of the youngsters these days collect friends on facebook.
So whats this 'recommend' button for exactly?
Must admit, it gave the one so conferred with them a certain sense of pride in their "work," having their peers rate their witticisms and intellectual prowess for all others to see... at least, it was that way for some people. (Of course, never for yours truly, right?)
Originally posted by vistesdYeah, I hear ye. Just scrolling back through some of the older-than-even-me times brought back waves of ghostly memories, names I'd long forgotten from all three sides of the aisle.
Wow! There are some names that bring back memories! KneverKnight absolutely crushed one my early midrashic ventures (drawing on the Zohar's comments on Noah); and my wife, reading his post over my shoulder said, "Yep. He's right." Ouch! (I duly passed her confirmation on to KK, who conncluded she was indeed a wise woman...).
And Ivanhoe start ...[text shortened]... y both Ivanhoe and No.1--to their mutual chagrin. I should have retired then...
Funny you would mention about the wife. I've on a few occasions attempted to explain certain points to my better whole about some arcane discussion I am totally engrossed in, only to see her eyes glaze over before my first semi-colon--- let alone anywhere near my oh-so-witty, oh-so-salient point. But instead of hearing her say, "Yep. He's (or, better: you're) right," I get to read her mind: "My husband's a geek."
Must be something lost in translation, right?
Nonetheless, a lot of water under this bridge. Much headway?
Originally posted by FreakyKBH[/i]One of my “better whole’s” (love that!) comments: “Couldn’t you write shorter posts? Who’s going to read through all that?”
Yeah, I hear ye. Just scrolling back through some of the older-than-even-me times brought back waves of ghostly memories, names I'd long forgotten from all three sides of the aisle.
Funny you would mention about the wife. I've on a few occasions attempted to explain certain points to my better whole about some arcane discussion I am [i]totally engross in translation, right?
Nonetheless, a lot of water under this bridge. Much headway?
Headway? Yeah, I think so. I’ve learned a lot via the arguments.