Originally posted by OmnislashI'm not aware of any Scripture supporting that.
The general assertion, as I understand it, is not that women should not preach, but rather that they should not be preachers in the literal sense ("spiritual leaders in Gods house ((i.e.church)) administering the sacraments, etc."😉.
Originally posted by DarfiusJust to be clear, I said that was the common assertion, not my own. I could list a myriad of scriptures that people MIGHT utilize to further their point. I however would suggest the mosaic laws as a general basis, specifically wherein it referse to the man as the spiritual leader of the household.
I'm not aware of any Scripture supporting that.
Again though, I am not making this assertion, just giveing example of where it might become derived from and my understanding of the general premise. If you wish to contend otherwise, I have no quarrel with that. I know not of any scripture that specifically says women should not be members of the clergy. I also, however, cannot say I am certain that such scripture does not exist. 🙂
Originally posted by kirksey957There have been many excellent, successful female evangelists but, as the son of a minister, I know that filling the pulpit is just one of the many functions that a minister performs in a church. And female ministers do not seem to fare as well in general as males in dealing with the endless committees and petty disputes that erupt whenever two or more are gathered together in His name.
We tend to dwell on several themes when it comes to religion on the debate forums. One issue that I do not believe we have discussed is whether or not it is appropiate to have female clergy. For some of you this may seem like a strange issue in a time of equal rights and female empowerment, but for many it is a big issue. I have started this thread with the encouragement of Nyxie who always has provocative ideas.
So disputes erupt whenever two or more are gathered together in His name? Interesting.
Now the scriptures say, "For where two or three are gathered together in My name, I am there in the midst of them." (Matt 18:20 NKJV)
Thus, according to you, there is a perfect positive correlation between disputes (confusion) arising from "two or more gathering in His name" and the presence of Christ. Let me break it down.
Theorem 1.1.
two or more gathered => dispute
two or more gathered => Christ
two or more gathered => dispute and Christ
Now dispute => confusion
Therefore applying theorem 1.1.
=> When there are two or more gathered in the Christ's name, Christ always comes with confusion.
Now how is this pertinent? Well if you read 1 Cor. 14:33, you will discover the very next verse.
"Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law.
And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church."
1 Cor. 14:34-35 KJV
Female preachers are of the Devil! Praise God! Oh yeah, we ex-Christian atheists never studied the Bible at all 😛
Originally posted by telerionMy mistake. I should know better than to post.
So disputes erupt whenever two or more are gathered together in His name? Interesting.
Now the scriptures say, "For where two or three are gathered together in My name, I am there in the midst of them." (Matt 18:20 NKJV)
Thus, according to you, there is a perfect positive correlation between disputes (confusion) arising from "two or more gatherin ...[text shortened]... vil! Praise God! Oh yeah, we ex-Christian atheists never studied the Bible at all 😛
Originally posted by kirksey957
Well, you would never hear the expression "backrow Baptists " anymore.
I am actually quite interested in your views, should they be scriptural.
I currently attend a church where many of the ministery happen to be female and was thinking of Paul's views on woman in the Church.
Please lead the way with your views.
Originally posted by pcaspianThis thread gave me a chance to do a liitle homework. I found a couple of Pauline passages that could relate to this issue. The most famous is from Ephesians about wives being submissive to their husbands, but I think the more specific scripture passage is from 1 Timothy 2:11ff. where women are not to have authority over men in teaching and ordinances of the church.
Originally posted by kirksey957
[b]Well, you would never hear the expression "backrow Baptists " anymore.
I am actually quite interested in your views, should they be scriptural.
I currently attend a church where many of the ministery happen to be female and was thinking of Paul's views on woman in the Church.
Please lead the way with your views.
[/b]
For me, Paul was a man of his times and his teachings reflect his times. However, we know today that there are many gifted women pastors. I know that Southern Baptist adhere to Paul's views, though some churches, like mine, have no trouble ordaining women as ministers or deacons. You can also find many other references to Paul's culture such as women not having short hair as it is a disgrace.
I guess the point of this thread was to 1) get a variety of opinions and 2) raise awareness/question of when does "authority" change. In other words, what's negotiable and what's "ground in stone."
One final thought. It has been my feeling for years that those most adverse to the idea of female ministers have personal issues with women that are not related to scripture as such.
Originally posted by kirksey957I believe that it is ok.
We tend to dwell on several themes when it comes to religion on the debate forums. One issue that I do not believe we have discussed is whether or not it is appropiate to have female clergy. For some of you this may seem like a strange issue in a time of equal rights and female empowerment, but for many it is a big issue. I have started this thread with the encouragement of Nyxie who always has provocative ideas.
I watch women preachers all the time on TV.
Anyone who is a believer has been given athority to preach the Gospel.
Originally posted by RBHILLRB, I'm a little shocked. I'm wondering if, for you, that indeed culture changing over time might take precedent over what Paul says about this issue.
I believe that it is ok.
I watch women preachers all the time on TV.
Anyone who is a believer has been given athority to preach the Gospel.
Ok I'll start at the beginning. Since it was brought up, let us discuss the view of original sin.
At least eight times in the New Testament the Apostle Paul states that one person was responsible for the fall of mankind, and twice he named that person as Adam (Rom 5:14; I Tim 2:14). In Genesis 5:2, God specifically called both man and woman Adam so one could surmise that Paul's attributing the fall of mankind to "Adam" actually meant both Adam and Eve. The right-wing religious conservatives have used this explanation for centuries as an argument to avoid passages that placed "the original sin" squarely on Adam's, not Eve's shoulders. Paul proclaimed in I Timothy 2:14, "and Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression." This passage tells us without question that Eve was tricked by the subtle beast while Adam, having been forewarned of God, knew exactly what he was doing! "Adam was the clear-headed one who could have stopped the affair (the fall). All he had to say was, "Satan! Get out of my garden, and Eve, don't let me ever catch you talking to that snake again!" But he didn't. Who was responsible for sin? The Bible says Adam was!" [1]
In Genesis 3:13, when confronted by God, Eve was honest and straightforward and replied, "the serpent beguiled me and I did eat." Adam, on the other hand, blamed Eve, failed to be responsible for his actions and indirectly pointed an accusing finger directly at God with the statement, "the woman whom 'thou' gavest to be with me" (Gen 3:12). What he really meant was "God, this would not have happened if you had not given that woman to me!" Regardless of who committed the original sin, Eve since the very beginning of time has been a scapegoat and Genesis chapter 3 has been the foundation used by men and organized religion to force women into total submissiveness and domination by males (Gen 3:16).
Nyxie
the Valkyrja
im against this as with the forward in faith within my church , but i have to say it mainly comes from paul. tho jesus had many female followers he never instructed them to teach. and all i know of marys visits to earth she has never said to my knowledge that women are to be given or allowed this.