1. Joined
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    02 Jul '09 12:52
    Karoly, here is your another thread.

    Do you have a comment or question about the three passages I expounded on ?

    That was Galatians 5, 1 Cor. 6, and Eph. 5. roughly. We were talking about the gay matter and the kingdom of God.
  2. Standard memberkaroly aczel
    the Devil himself
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    03 Jul '09 04:48
    Originally posted by jaywill
    Karoly, here is your another thread.

    Do you have a comment or question about the three passages I expounded on ?

    That was Galatians 5, 1 Cor. 6, and Eph. 5. roughly. We were talking about the gay matter and the kingdom of God.
    My question to you is this: Do YOU believe it is a sin to be homosexual? (more of a sin than htetrosexual)
    Another question would be why waste time worrying about what consenting adults do in privacy? (are there not starving millions,wars, etc. that should be of higher concern?)
    Feel free to give me some scriptures but I do prefer your own interpretation. No refrences necessary but you may want to give them for others.
    Thnx Jaywill. Would love to know what the 'wolves' think about this one, especially the christian ones.
  3. Standard memberCalJust
    It is what it is
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    03 Jul '09 07:49
    Originally posted by jaywill
    Karoly, here is your another thread.

    Do you have a comment or question about the three passages I expounded on ?

    That was Galatians 5, 1 Cor. 6, and Eph. 5. roughly. We were talking about the gay matter and the kingdom of God.
    Hi jaywil,

    For the benefit of the rest of us, could you (very briefly, please!) summarise the main points of your previous discussion?

    I have read the three chapters you mention and cannot easily identify what would be common in them as concerning homosexuality. (I notice you left out Romans 1, which is normally quoted first!)

    This could be an interesting discussion, as long as it doesn't deteriorate into mudslinging and abuse!! 😛
  4. Joined
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    04 Jul '09 15:175 edits
    Originally posted by karoly aczel
    My question to you is this: Do YOU believe it is a sin to be homosexual? (more of a sin than htetrosexual)
    Another question would be why waste time worrying about what consenting adults do in privacy? (are there not starving millions,wars, etc. that should be of higher concern?)
    Feel free to give me some scriptures but I do prefer your own interpretat ...[text shortened]... ill. Would love to know what the 'wolves' think about this one, especially the christian ones.
    ===================================
    My question to you is this: Do YOU believe it is a sin to be homosexual? (more of a sin than htetrosexual)
    =================================


    Your question seems two part to me.

    1.) Do I believe it is a sin to be a homosexual.

    It seems to me that the sex act between people of the same sex is sinful.

    I think homosexuality may be a kind of arrested pyschological development. I think that many people pass through a stage in life (perhaps puberty or adolescence) where there is a stirring attraction to members of the same sex of some kind.

    I could be wrong. And I am not a pyschologist. But from my reading of the Bible a clear and strong line is drawn that this is sinful.

    I am open to be convinced otherwise. But I don't think it would be easy. I am opened to reasonable counter arguments.


    2.) more of a sin than hterrosexual

    Obviously, heterosexual acts can also be sinful. So this question I would approach cautiously. A heterosexual adulteror or fornicator is also sinful. I don't think we need to rate these sins on a scale. I think we need to see that "all have sinned and come short of the glory of God" therefore we all need the Savior Christ.

    We need Him to remove the guilt of sin and to empower us to overcome the power of sin.

    Having said this, I don't think being "sin centered". Focusing on the sin does not help. Those who want to be freed from any sin should focus on Jesus. Look away unto Jesus.

    Focusing on your sin is like pulling a tight ball of yarn. It just gets tighter and tighter.

    We have to develop the skill as Christians to look away unto Jesus, calling on His name, turning our hearts to Him. Drawing more and more attention to the sin is counter productive.

    ===========================
    Another question would be why waste time worrying about what consenting adults do in privacy?
    ===============================


    I am not a political activist. I am a gospel spreader trying to secure spiritual values in followers of Jesus for the building of the kingdom of God.

    This matter of leaving people alone to do what they want is more of an issue for those advocating what laws the government should pass for society to live by.

    The only system of government I am familiar with personally is democracy. If in this democracy it should be deemed appropriate that some lifestyle be protected to a point I think is too much for society, then I probably would feel to move to another society, another country.

    So in short I may like or dislike laws which are passed. But democracy is kind of majority opinion rules. If I couldn't take it, I should move.


    My Bible is flexible about this. It says "If possible, as far as it depends on you, live in peace with all men." (Romans 12:18)

    As far as possible, depending how much love and grace the Christian has, and how much she or he is enjoying Christ's power in their lives, they should live in peace with the surrouding society.


    ===============================
    (are there not starving millions,wars, etc. that should be of higher concern?)
    ==============================


    Of course there is a concern. When you say "higher concern" you may be bribing the conscience.

    I mean we sinners have a tendency. Since we fall short in one area we try to appease our conscience by saying "Well at least I am not too bad. I have a real concern for this MORE important issue here."

    "Higher concerns" do not make any sin not a sin. Do not think that I have to feed 10,000,000 starving persons BEFORE I can preach the Gospel to a sinner who is not hungry.

    ===================================
    Feel free to give me some scriptures but I do prefer your own interpretation. No refrences necessary but you may want to give them for others.
    Thnx Jaywill. Would love to know what the 'wolves' think about this one, especially the christian ones.
    ===================================


    I would only add that I had a brother die in the gay community in San Fransisco. He did of HIV complications related probably to his gay lifestyle.

    So the matter is close to my heart. And I have other family members who are in the homosexual lifestyle.

    It has become more and more popular in the US in recent decades. The atmosphere is thick with its persuasion. It has become "in" and "vogue" with some - the cool thing to be.

    But I am mainly a gospel spreaderr and not a political or religious activist trying to influence the laws of the land. I am trying to turn people, not to good behavior, but to Jesus Christ Himself.
  5. Account suspended
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    04 Jul '09 22:481 edit
    'I would only add that I had a brother die in the gay community in San Fransisco. He did of HIV complications related probably to his gay lifestyle.'

    i am really really sorry to hear that Jaywill - peace to you my friend

    although all my brothers are alive, there are not a few of my extended family dead through drugs, just young men with their whole life ahead of them.
  6. Standard memberkaroly aczel
    the Devil himself
    Brisbane,QLD
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    04 Jul '09 23:59
    Originally posted by jaywill
    [b]===================================
    My question to you is this: Do YOU believe it is a sin to be homosexual? (more of a sin than htetrosexual)
    =================================


    Your question seems two part to me.

    1.) Do I believe it is a sin to be a homosexual.

    It seems to me that the sex act between people of the same sex ...[text shortened]... rying to turn people, not to good behavior, but to Jesus Christ Himself.[/b]
    I don't think most gay people choose to be gay. Not the ones I have met anyway. They mostly have very similar stories about starting out with girls and then having a 'coming out of the closet experience'
    Almost all of them faced shame and ridicule and isolation from friends and family (whom they seem to love)
    Why would they put themselves through this torment if they aren't truly gay and just choosing gayness.
    I have thought about this myself. What would make a man want to have sex with another man. Can't get a woman? Wouldn't you just masterbate? Rather than having sex with a man? Ugh-
    Yes I myself am repulsed at the idea, yet the gay people I know seem to have a very different disposition.
    The unfolding of ones life and their dharma (road to God) is unique for each individual. Clearly 'Beliving in Jesus' does not work for everyone.
    Just as I can't fathom why a man would want to have sex with another man I do not think they are any more or less of a sinner than me.
    I would guess that I can help people who have had similar experiences to me. I'm not going to try to help homosexuals with their sins relating to their sexual orientation.
    Like with drug addicts , true change for them seems to come from counselling by other ex-drug addicts. Ones who have been there done that.
    I'm like that . I only talk about things I have experienced and am not going to try to say to someone 'I understand your problems' when I have no experiential knowledge of it.

    Sorry to hear about your brother.
    Peace mr.JW
  7. Joined
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    05 Jul '09 19:121 edit
    Originally posted by CalJust
    Hi jaywil,

    For the benefit of the rest of us, could you (very briefly, please!) summarise the main points of your previous discussion?

    I have read the three chapters you mention and cannot easily identify what would be common in them as concerning homosexuality. (I notice you left out Romans 1, which is normally quoted first!)

    This could be an interesting discussion, as long as it doesn't deteriorate into mudslinging and abuse!! 😛
    ===============================
    Hi jaywil,

    For the benefit of the rest of us, could you (very briefly, please!) summarise the main points of your previous discussion?
    =======================================


    All manner of sins can be forgiven sinners.

    The loss of reward, as warned by the New Testament, is not the same as the lose of eternal redemption.


    ========================================
    I have read the three chapters you mention and cannot easily identify what would be common in them as concerning homosexuality. (I notice you left out Romans 1, which is normally quoted first!)
    ===================================


    I used the three passages because they all three have with the same conclusion, as stated below:

    " ... the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God" (1 Cor. 6:9).

    " .. . those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God." (Gal. 5:21)

    " ... has no inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God." (Eph. 5:5)

    I think in the case of the Corinthian passage the conclussion is stated first before the list of sins. With the others the conclusion is stated afterwards.

    The exclusion from inheriting the kingdom of God is the common thread. The list of offenses is not completely identical. It does overlap in places. And one list finishes with "and things like these" leaving it open ended as a warning.

    I look at it this way. The kingdom of God is forever. As long as a person's character is in that state (as mentioned in the list of sinful behaviors) he is not in a condition in which he can practically be rewarded with participating in the kingdom of God in its manifestation when Jesus comes again.

    The sinful man and the holy God cannot coalesce in the manifestation stage of God's kingdom. We all must be transformed and sanctified. We can postpone the process and give God a little temporary trouble. We cannot put it off forever.

    I have written before that in the New Testament salvation you get to be forgiven of all of your sins forever. But you do not get to remain the same kind of person as when you sinned forever.

    ===================================
    This could be an interesting discussion, as long as it doesn't deteriorate into mudslinging and abuse!!
    ======================================


    I promise to try to avoid that.
  8. Standard memberCalJust
    It is what it is
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    06 Jul '09 10:59
    Originally posted by jaywill
    All manner of sins can be forgiven sinners.

    The loss of reward, as warned by the New Testament, is not the same as the lose of eternal redemption.
    Hi jaywill,

    This is an interesting concept, one that I have not come across before, I must confess.

    I have always thought that they are the same thing - either you ARE in heaven or you're not!

    I realise that there are the passages about reward, as you mention, but I have never known what to do with it! The bottom line for me is that there will be NO sorrow or regret in heaven, which therefore rules out and jealousies (of other's rewards) or of regrets (of not having done this or that.) But, yes, somewhere there are some kinds of graduations and differences, but how they work must be another subject.

    As to the subject of homosexuality, I have had to modify my opinion on that somewhat. Clearly, the Bible is against it everywhere where it is mentioned, be it in the Levitical laws, or in the NT. I used to be very dogmatic about this - "Either accept that is is SIN, or disbelieve the Bible - the choice is yours!!".

    However, I now believe there are deeper principles than merely the commandments. This is what Jesus preached. He did not condone the woman caught in adultery, but also did not condemn her. "Go, and sin no more". The publican was, in Jesus' eyes, more justified than the Pharisee, because he acknowledged his state.

    I am no longer finger pointing and judgemental, about gays and many other things. The priciple of love is the deepest of them all, and the second one, as deep, is the one that each person is responsible to God directly, e.g. J's words to Peter about John.

    To come back to your "rewards" premise, I do believe that your Spirit, which is the real you, gets to live for ever, not your sould, which is the source of yur emotions and will. (If my Sould got to heaven, and I was not married to my beloved wife of 45 years, as Jesus said, I would be very upset!!) 😉

    If this has something to do with REWARDS or not, I'm not sure....

    In peace,

    CJ
  9. Joined
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    06 Jul '09 14:472 edits
    Originally posted by karoly aczel
    I don't think most gay people choose to be gay. Not the ones I have met anyway. They mostly have very similar stories about starting out with girls and then having a 'coming out of the closet experience'
    Almost all of them faced shame and ridicule and isolation from friends and family (whom they seem to love)
    Why would they put themselves through t no experiential knowledge of it.

    Sorry to hear about your brother.
    Peace mr.JW
    ===================================
    I don't think most gay people choose to be gay. Not the ones I have met anyway. They mostly have very similar stories about starting out with girls and then having a 'coming out of the closet experience'
    Almost all of them faced shame and ridicule and isolation from friends and family (whom they seem to love)
    =================================


    This matter of "starting out with girls" should be considered. What does that mean ?

    The sex drive is an extrememly powerful urge. The money hungry society exploits it to the uttermost to keep men's lust stirred up for finacial gain. And the poor women are idolized to the point that the beauty industry is a multi-billion dollar business.

    Have you ever gone into a beauty shop and felt sorrow for woman who are pressed and herded into keeping up with the thousands of products for beautification? I have.

    When I was a lusty young college student I went to a Christian pastor in a sneaky way, indirectly asking him to get me a girlfriend. I was trying to get is "help" in such a way that he would not realize. But he saw what I was up to and told me that when he was in college he was so busy that he didn't even know what a girl was.

    I try to tell college boys that they should use the strong desire for the opposite sex as an incentive to study hard and graduate so that they can evenutally provide for a happy marriage life with their God provided mate.

    But they should avoid situations and media which stir up lust. The majority of boy / girl relationships of unmarried young people are only good for "breaking up" and eventual "dumping" and hurt feelings and premature experiences of intimacy and "using" people, all of which do not serve human development well. That let alone the cost of children out of wedlock and abortions.

    How "free" has "free love" been ?

    Anyway I am off on a tangent I guess. I guess the jist of what I am saying is that "starting out with girls" sounds suspect to me. We need the grace of God to hold in check strong desires until the appropriate time for marriage. We need the Lord Jesus. We need Christ's self control to be made available to us through His Holy Spirit.

    =============================
    Why would they put themselves through this torment if they aren't truly gay and just choosing gayness.
    I have thought about this myself. What would make a man want to have sex with another man.
    ===================================


    Emptiness in human life is a problem. And some people wonder why they were not made happy by some experiences. So they figure that they need to make a radical adjustment.

    "Maybe, I'd be happy with someone of my own sex."

    ============================
    Can't get a woman? Wouldn't you just masterbate? Rather than having sex with a man? Ugh-
    =====================================


    You have to admit that this sounds a little like catching fish.

    If God has someone for you to marry, you won't be able to get away from her even if you go to the other side of the world.

    He cares for these things. I would advize the anxious to thank Him in prayer beforehand, by faith. Honor Him and see how His extraordinary faithfulness will work.

    =================================
    Yes I myself am repulsed at the idea, yet the gay people I know seem to have a very different disposition.
    ==================================


    Personal repulsion is not what mainly enfluences my attitude. But the word of God is. He does not like confusion in this matter. And unbridled greedy lust can become an idol replacing God.

    He does not want us to be damaged by the damage that idolatry inflicts on a human being. We were created for God. Relacing God with an idol or an addiction damages the human vessel created for God.


    ================================
    The unfolding of ones life and their dharma (road to God) is unique for each individual. Clearly 'Beliving in Jesus' does not work for everyone.
    ==============================


    The Bible says that there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.

    The Bible says that the living Savior God is "the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe" .

    Why not point all men to Jesus Christ then ? At least they all have a right to hear of Jesus Christ at least once in their lives to make a decision.

    ===================================
    Just as I can't fathom why a man would want to have sex with another man I do not think they are any more or less of a sinner than me.
    ==================================


    As I said before, there is an emptiness that leaves people feeling "Why did that not make me happy? Why do I feel that there must be something ELSE to my life?"

    This sense of futility can cause a man to make a radical search for whatever it is he thinks he needs. And some men may experience this feeling of unsatisfaction after experiencing "romance" with a woman.

    Life is fragile and should be handled with prayer.

    ================================
    I would guess that I can help people who have had similar experiences to me. I'm not going to try to help homosexuals with their sins relating to their sexual orientation.
    =====================================


    If you are a believer in Christ the word tells us that if anyone lacks wisdom let him ask of God.

    There is no harm in asking God to be wisdom to you to be able to help people who you were sure you could never help in the past. But it is up to Him.

    Since I am a sinner saved by grace I want all kinds of people to have a chance to receive the same abundant and undeserving mercy that I received. If they refuse that is up to them.

    But I want to tell them of the wonderful Savior Jesus. He is the Friend of Sinners.

    ===============================
    Like with drug addicts , true change for them seems to come from counselling by other ex-drug addicts. Ones who have been there done that.
    ===========================


    That is true.

    ==================================
    I'm like that . I only talk about things I have experienced and am not going to try to say to someone 'I understand your problems' when I have no experiential knowledge of it.
    =====================================


    Thanks for you post. You have the last word here. Post again please.
  10. Joined
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    06 Jul '09 15:401 edit
    Originally posted by CalJust
    Hi jaywill,

    This is an interesting concept, one that I have not come across before, I must confess.

    I have always thought that they are the same thing - either you ARE in heaven or you're not!

    I realise that there are the passages about reward, as you mention, but I have never known what to do with it! The bottom line for me is that there will be NO
    If this has something to do with REWARDS or not, I'm not sure....

    In peace,

    CJ
    ====================================
    This is an interesting concept, one that I have not come across before, I must confess.
    ===============================


    You have to check it out prayerfully and with much study to make sure it is true.

    Test it prayerfully asking God for wisdom. I tend to look for possible problems with an interpretation and "torture test" it before I really believe it.

    To me this stands the test.

    ===============================
    I have always thought that they are the same thing - either you ARE in heaven or you're not!
    ============================


    I'll comment more latter.

    =======================
    I realise that there are the passages about reward, as you mention, but I have never known what to do with it!
    ===============================


    Why don't you pray = "Lord Jesus, I do not know what I should do about this light which you have shown me. Lord, if I should not be concerned about this then take away any burden for this. If though I should react in some way to this light which you have shown me, please show me a practical way I can cooperate with the truth that you have shown me. Lord, how then shall I live?"

    God is very, very, wise and patient and merciful. It may be that some very simple matter He will reveal to you is, right NOW, the only thing He requires of you.

    In the one simple thing which He reveals, COOPERATE. Then MORE light and truth will come. Do not worry.

    "But the path of the righteuos is like the light of dawn, which shines brighter and brighter until the full day." (Proverbs 4:18)

    It may be that God has only one or two simple matters that He would like to clear up in your life because of this truth which you have noticed. The light grows brighter and brighter with obedience. The path becomes more and more clear through faithfulness to the little bit that He has shown you.

    We who are following Jesus are all gradually on our way to the dawning of a bright day a step at a time.

    ==========================
    The bottom line for me is that there will be NO sorrow or regret in heaven, which therefore rules out and jealousies (of other's rewards) or of regrets (of not having done this or that.) But, yes, somewhere there are some kinds of graduations and differences, but how they work must be another subject.
    ====================================


    Notice Revelation 20. Before the eternal age of no tears and no sorrow or death, there is a one thousand year millennial kingdom.

    This seems like a kinb of preliminary period, a buffer zone of some kind. God sets up this one thousand year introduction as an incentive to cooperate with His merciful grace to be transformed.

    This will make the difference between those who just took eternal forgiveness but did not change and those who took eternal forgiveness and according to His will, sought sanctification and transformation.

    The preliminary period as an incentive, has reward. The eternal age to follow is the gift. If any of this needs further clarification I can probably help with that.

    ===============================
    As to the subject of homosexuality, I have had to modify my opinion on that somewhat. Clearly, the Bible is against it everywhere where it is mentioned, be it in the Levitical laws, or in the NT. I used to be very dogmatic about this - "Either accept that is is SIN, or disbelieve the Bible - the choice is yours!!".
    =================================


    I think if a person has a heart for the Lord Jesus, the light of truth will grow.

    There are whole chapters of the New Testament that I wished were not there, when I first received Christ. I did not like the entire chapter of Romans 13.

    With growth I eventually said "Amen". Grace comes when we accept truth - just the same way the sinner got saved initially.

    When I admitted that I was lost and could not help my condition, then the Savior came in to help me. It is the same throughout the rest of the Christian life.

    It is not by our own effort that we can overcome anything. We need another life. We need Jesus Christ's life grafted into our life.

    This saves us as well as accomplishes God's eternal purpose to dispense His life and nature into man, so that God and man can mingle together as one.

    Jesus is the total MINGLING of God and man. Our fallen helpless state as sinners is the catalyst for us to ALSO become mingled with God.

    So we can certianly consecrate our weaknesses to the fulfillment of the eternal plan of God. This lifts our sins and faults to a higher level.

    I can consecrate my homosexual problem to God to drive my roots deeper into God.

    "Blessed is the man who trusts in Jehovah and whose trust Jehovah is. And he will be like a tree transplanted beside water, which sends out its roots by a stream, and will not be afraid when heat comes; for its leaves remain flourishing, and it will not be anxious in the year of drought and ill not cease to bear fruit." (Jeremiah 17:7-8)


    Use your homosexuality to cause you to turn deeply to Jesus sinking your roots down into the streams of the Holy Spirit.

    Use all your weaknesses in this way: to drive you deeper into God Himself.

    ==============================
    However, I now believe there are deeper principles than merely the commandments. This is what Jesus preached. He did not condone the woman caught in adultery, but also did not condemn her. "Go, and sin no more". The publican was, in Jesus' eyes, more justified than the Pharisee, because he acknowledged his state.
    ==================================


    Our sins can all be forgiven. God did not overlook them. He judged them on Calvary on Christ's cross.

    Justice has been accomplished upon the sinner's sins in Christ, in His death on our behalf. God does not even remember our sins if we come to Jesus for redemption.

    The problem of guilt has been taken care of to the uttermost. Now the sinner needs the grace to empower him to live unto God.

    "Therefore receiving an unshakable kingdom, let us have grace, through which we may serve God well-pleasingly with piety and fear." (Heb 12:28)

    "Finally, be empowered in the Lord and in the might of His strength" (Eph. 6:10)

    If we eat Him we will be empowerd by Him. If we maticate His word prayerfully we will be empowered in His might. If we begin the day with Jesus He will empower us through the day, especially if we call on His name "O Lord Jesus. I love you Lord Jesus".

    His grace will empower us and we can overcome. But we have to develop the habit to take Him in in His word, chewing up, masticating the word in Spirit. That is excercising our praying spirit to digest the word of God and calling on His name. It is best to start each day this way.

    You are what you EAT. If we EAT Jesus we will live Jesus.

    "He who eats Me even he shall live because of Me."

    Oh we need to EAT, DIGEST, MATICATE, CHEW UP in our mouth the life giving, life imparting, life empowering words of the Jesus.

    ==============================
    I am no longer finger pointing and judgemental, about gays and many other things. The priciple of love is the deepest of them all, and the second one, as deep, is the one that each person is responsible to God directly, e.g. J's words to Peter about John.
    ================================


    That's right. Love is an expression of divine life. It is the divine love that never fails.

    ==================================
    To come back to your "rewards" premise, I do believe that your Spirit, which is the real you, gets to live for ever, not your sould, which is the source of yur emotions and will. (If my Sould got to heaven, and I was not married to my beloved wife of 45 years, as Jesus said, I would be very upset!!)

    If this has something to do with REWARDS or not, I'm not sure....

    ===================


    allow me to comment further latter.

    The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ be with your spirit.
  11. Standard memberCalJust
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    07 Jul '09 07:54
    Thanks for this detailed reply, jaywil.

    Much food for thought....

    In peace

    CJ
  12. Joined
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    07 Jul '09 11:381 edit
    Originally posted by CalJust
    Thanks for this detailed reply, jaywil.

    Much food for thought....

    In peace

    CJ
    I mistakenly said that we can lift our sins to a "higher level". I have to be careful. I don't think that is what I mean.

    Our sins cannot be lifted to any higher level. I mean that we are lifted to a kind of higher purpose by letting our sins be the catalyst to cause of to stay close to Jesus, sink deeper into the Spirit of Jesus.
  13. Cape Town
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    07 Jul '09 12:06
    Originally posted by jaywill
    I would only add that I had a brother die in the gay community in San Fransisco. He did of HIV complications related probably to his gay lifestyle.

    So the matter is close to my heart. And I have other family members who are in the homosexual lifestyle.

    It has become more and more popular in the US in recent decades. The atmosphere is thick with its persuasion. It has become "in" and "vogue" with some - the cool thing to be.
    I have lost many friends to AIDS, none of them were gay (that I know of).

    I have never personally talked to a gay person about homosexuality. I met a few people I think are gay (based on their behavior) but cant think of anyone I know who admits to being gay. However, from everything I have read, it seems that the vast majority of people who engage in gay relationships are gay from a fairly young age and it appears that there have always been gay people.

    Are you saying that you believe it is a choice people make? When you say it has become popular, are you saying that some heterosexual people are living a gay lifestyle, or simply that it is more popular for gay people to openly show their orientation?
  14. Joined
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    07 Jul '09 12:54
    Originally posted by twhitehead
    I have lost many friends to AIDS, none of them were gay (that I know of).

    I have never personally talked to a gay person about homosexuality. I met a few people I think are gay (based on their behavior) but cant think of anyone I know who admits to being gay. However, from everything I have read, it seems that the vast majority of people who engage in ...[text shortened]... ay lifestyle, or simply that it is more popular for gay people to openly show their orientation?
    ============================
    I have lost many friends to AIDS, none of them were gay (that I know of).
    =============================


    I do not disbute that for a moment twhitehead.

    We cannot assume everyone with AIDS is gay.


    =================================
    I have never personally talked to a gay person about homosexuality. I met a few people I think are gay (based on their behavior) but cant think of anyone I know who admits to being gay. However, from everything I have read, it seems that the vast majority of people who engage in gay relationships are gay from a fairly young age and it appears that there have always been gay people.
    ======================================


    I really don't focus on trying to figure out what people are. As long as they are people, they are loved by God and Christ died for them on the cross. He is the Savior of all men (women too obviously).

    We like to lead people to Jesus Christ and the let Holy Spirit begin to do His work of salvation and sanctification. Making an issue of their specific past is not that much of my priority as a Gospel spreader.


    =======================
    Are you saying that you believe it is a choice people make? When you say it has become popular, are you saying that some heterosexual people are living a gay lifestyle, or simply that it is more popular for gay people to openly show their orientation?
    =============================


    In the US some people talk about being "bisexual". My opinion is that the atmosphere has made it fertile for curious people to experiment. Perhaps they reason that they should have a little variety in thier lives - try the opposite sex and the same sex too - "bisexual".

    Someone told me that if God does not judge the US He will have to apologize to Sodom. It is a fearful situation.

    But again "all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God". We all need the Savior.
  15. Standard memberkaroly aczel
    the Devil himself
    Brisbane,QLD
    Joined
    11 Apr '09
    Moves
    91612
    08 Jul '09 09:04
    Originally posted by jaywill
    [b]===================================
    I don't think most gay people choose to be gay. Not the ones I have met anyway. They mostly have very similar stories about starting out with girls and then having a 'coming out of the closet experience'
    Almost all of them faced shame and ridicule and isolation from friends and family (whom they seem to love) ...[text shortened]... post. You have the last word here. Post again please.
    Sorry your 'life is empty so i need to turn gay' arguement doesn't gel with me. As i said before many gay peoples lives i know have become more empty as a result of them 'coming out of the closet'.

    We need Lord Jesus Christ and more. Much,much more. The examples of this are abundant.

    I agree with the general jist of your post though. Our powerful sex-drives need to be steered in the proper direction if we are to awaken to our true purposes in our lives.

    I just dont know why you persist in your assertion that Jesus' teachings are the only way. I would happily steer someone toward Jesus' examples if I thought it appropriate.

    If it works you thats fine. No, better than fine . Thats great! But to try to convert everyone to your biblical-centered point of view is short-sighted and downright dangerous in my humble opinion.

    Do you believe that someone can come to know God through other means (other than through Jesus)? (note this is a 'yes' or 'no' question and I would love to hear your response)
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