anti-intellectualism

My friends i do not claim to be an intellectual, far from it, however it appears to me that there is not a small swathe of our Christian friends here who seem to prize a kind of sentimentality over knowledge, as if sentiment of itself can provide the basis for a meaningful faith. This could be for a number of reasons and I hesitate to speculate, never the less, there is certainly a strong kind of emotionalism present among many Christians which attempts to defy all rationality and seeks to diminish the acquiring of accurate knowledge with regard to matters of faith. It manifests itself through sentiments like 'dont worry God will sort it all out', or 1960s style sentiments like, 'all you need is love'. The Bible itself counsels against this kind of complacency and admonishes the student to study Gods word. I produce the following for consideration and meditation.

(John 17:3)This means everlasting life, their taking in knowledge of you, the only true God, and of the one whom you sent forth, Jesus Christ.

here we can discern that there is a direct correlation between study and everlasting life! Knowledge for the Christian really is that important and no amount of sentiment can substitute itself for it.

(Proverbs 2:1-5) My son, if you will receive my sayings and treasure up my own commandments with yourself, so as to pay attention to wisdom with your ear, that you may incline your heart to discernment; if, moreover, you call out for understanding itself and you give forth your voice for discernment itself, if you keep seeking for it as for silver, and as for hid treasures you keep searching for it, in that case you will understand the fear of Jehovah, and you will find the very knowledge of God

The ancient Solomon likens this search for knowledge to digging for treasure, an act which takes great effort but yields a rich reward, the very knowledge of God! What is the result?

(Proverbs 2:10, 11) When wisdom enters into your heart and knowledge itself becomes pleasant to your very soul, thinking ability itself will keep guard over you, discernment itself will safeguard you.

Who would not want to be considered wise? to have thinking ability, discernment?

Thus i raise this issue because it appears to me to be one of some serious concern. Yes we are under duress to love God and our friends and neighbours, but there is no substitute for accurate knowledge and the only way to get it is to put forth the earnest effort. If you are a Christian I therefore admonish you to make a diligent study of Gods word and to view with suspicion a sentimentality that cannot provide a solid and rational basis for your faith.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
My friends i do not claim to be an intellectual, far from it, however it appears to me that there is not a small swathe of our Christian friends here who seem to prise a kind of sentimentality over knowledge, as if sentiment of itself can provide the basis for a meaningful faith. This could be for a number of reasons and I hesitate to speculate, nev ...[text shortened]... w with suspicion a sentimentality that cannot provide a solid and rational basis for your faith.

How many had Bibles in the first few centuries after Christ left?
Are they any worse off for it?

The ability to know good and evil is written in the heart of man. God has placed a conscience in all people and it is on how they live within their own conscience is how they will be judged.

If you can really write all that nonsense, then you are not an intellectual and your so-called knowledge is really a disadvantage to you.

Originally posted by Rajk999
How many had Bibles in the first few centuries after Christ left?
Are they any worse off for it?

The ability to know good and evil is written in the heart of man. God has placed a conscience in all people and it is on how they live within their own conscience is how they will be judged.

If you can really write all that nonsense, then you are not an intellectual and your so-called knowledge is really a disadvantage to you.

Umm the Hebrews had been making copies of the scriptures for three thousand years, you think they might have had a few lying around? just sayin.

how does any of what you have said even address a single point that I made? Does the Bible state that knowledge is important? yes it does, it states that it leads to everlasting life? The scripture does say, 'this means everlasting life does it not? does it say that good and evil is written in the heart of man leads to everlasting life? nope, its simply one of those nonsensical anti Biblical and anti intellectual sayings that permeate so many Christians faith and I should really thank you for highlighting the point at hand.

you dont want to search for the very knowledge of God its your call, but the price for doing so is a faith based on emotion and sentiment with no rational basis.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
Umm the Hebrews had been making copies of the scriptures for three thousand years, you think they might have had a few lying around? just sayin.

how does any of what you have said even address a single point that I made? Does the Bible state that knowledge is important? yes it does, it states that it leads to everlasting life? The scripture does ...[text shortened]... ll, but the price for doing so is a faith based on emotion and sentiment with no rational basis.

So knowledge is now what save us? But I thought that the kingdom of God was hidden from those who were intellectually gifted and prudent and revealed to mere children and outcasts.

I can't keep up with JW doctrine. I don't know how you do it Robbie.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
Umm the Hebrews had been making copies of the scriptures for three thousand years, you think they might have had a few lying around? just sayin.

how does any of what you have said even address a single point that I made? Does the Bible state that knowledge is important? yes it does, it states that it leads to everlasting life? The scripture does ...[text shortened]... ll, but the price for doing so is a faith based on emotion and sentiment with no rational basis.

If knowledge has made you arrogant then it is a disadvantage to you. The Bible says that as well.

Your knowledge has made you arrogant like it did to the Pharisees.

How? You are part of an organisation that has sidelined the rest of the world and made you feel that you are superior because of your supposed / imagined knowledge.

The only time your knowledge is of value to you is if/when you are able to recognise that God can and will grant eternal life to all those who are obedient to the most basic law that Christ laid down ..ie to love God and love your neighbor as yourself.

Your knowledge goes into your head.
God would prefer if it went into your heart and changed you into a better person

Originally posted by whodey
So knowledge is now what save us? But I thought that the kingdom of God was hidden from those who were intellectually gifted and prudent and revealed to mere children and outcasts.

I can't keep up with JW doctrine. I don't know how you do it Robbie.

its nothing to do with Jehovahs witness doctrine? how hard can it be to address the content of a post whodey, that is what is actually written? Does your Bible not say, 'this means everlasting life their taking in knowledge of you', at John 17:3? will you explain why God had that written in the Bible if its of no importance?

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
its nothing to do with Jehovahs witness doctrine? how hard can it be to address the content of a post whodey, that is what is actually written? Does your Bible not say, 'this means everlasting life their taking in knowledge of you', at John 17:3? will you explain why God had that written in the Bible if its of no importance?

Did I say that the Bible was of no importance? Certainly I did not.

What I do know is that Jesus trashed the religious leaders of his day who read the scriptures daily.

Why do you think that was Robbie?

Originally posted by Rajk999
If knowledge has made you arrogant then it is a disadvantage to you. The Bible says that as well.

Your knowledge has made you arrogant like it did to the Pharisees.

How? You are part of an organisation that has sidelined the rest of the world and made you feel that you are superior because of your supposed / imagined knowledge.

The only time your k ...[text shortened]... nto your head.
God would prefer if it went into your heart and changed you into a better person

Your knowledge has made you arrogant like it did to the Pharisees.

First of all, its not about me, were you not saying only yesterday that

Engaging the person rather than tackling the substance of the post is what small minds do

ouch that gotta hurt and until you do address the actual content instead of introducing irrelevancies and personal remarks I see no point in engaging you in a serious discussion.

Originally posted by whodey
Did I say that the Bible was of no importance? Certainly I did not.

What I do know is that Jesus trashed the religious leaders of his day who read the scriptures daily.

Why do you think that was Robbie?

then perhaps you may proffer an opinion as to the import of the verse for the Christian whodey?

(John 17:3)This means everlasting life, their taking in knowledge of you, the only true God, and of the one whom you sent forth, Jesus Christ.

Originally posted by whodey
Did I say that the Bible was of no importance? Certainly I did not.

What I do know is that Jesus trashed the religious leaders of his day who read the scriptures daily.

Why do you think that was Robbie?

so just what are you saying whoders? that because Jesus condemned the Pharisees that the Christian should not take in knowledge? and that such knowledge does not lead to everlasting life.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
My friends i do not claim to be an intellectual, far from it, however it appears to me that there is not a small swathe of our Christian friends here who seem to prize a kind of sentimentality over knowledge, as if sentiment of itself can provide the basis for a meaningful faith. This could be for a number of reasons and I hesitate to speculate, nev ...[text shortened]... w with suspicion a sentimentality that cannot provide a solid and rational basis for your faith.

(John 17:3)This means everlasting life, their taking in knowledge of you, the only true God, and of the one whom you sent forth, Jesus Christ.

While I believe that reading the Bible, Studying, and Praying are very important disciplines, 'knowing' God is also... it is not about knowledge (book) only. I have not done any kind of exhaustive study on the word 'knowing' or 'knowledge', but it seems to me that 'knowing' only comes from spending time with God... this would be like 'knowing' a spouse, you spend time with them you get to know them, knowledge is from a book. While God wants us to 'know' (as in the mind, book) he also wants us to 'know' (as in the heart). I think sometimes Christians (JW, from what I have seen in this forum, and others) are about the head knowledge while foregoing heart knowledge, IMO.

'The pharisees had knowledge but they missed the mark, they did not 'know' God, even though they knew of God.



John 17:3
English Standard Version (ESV)

3 And this is eternal life, that they know you the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent.


John 17:3
King James Version (KJV)

3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.


As you can see there is a difference between Bible versions and the NWT (I assume you were quoting from in you OP), of the 5-6 versions of the Bible that I looked at to 'know' implies something different than 'knowledge'. God wants us to have a relationship with him not just know about him, so sentiment is important as well as knowledge.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
its nothing to do with Jehovahs witness doctrine? how hard can it be to address the content of a post whodey, that is what is actually written? Does your Bible not say, 'this means everlasting life their taking in knowledge of you', at John 17:3? will you explain why God had that written in the Bible if its of no importance?

this means everlasting life their taking in knowledge of you

Curious, what version are you getting this from?

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
Your knowledge has made you arrogant like it did to the Pharisees.

First of all, its not about me, were you not saying only yesterday that

Engaging the person rather than tackling the substance of the post is what small minds do

ouch that gotta hurt and until you do address the actual content instead of introducing irrelevancies and personal remarks I see no point in engaging you in a serious discussion.

You have repeatedly sidelined the rest of the world by claiming some kind of superior knowledge because of your supposed direct connection with God through the Watchtower organisation. This is not the first time you are starting threads along these lines. So the fact that you are a JW is relevant.

Here is what John 17:3 says in the KJV:

John 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

To know God is to know what God and Christ is about. Reading and studying the entire Bible is not required. Devil/s have claimed to know God / Christ so I guess they will get eternal life as well ? :

Luke 4:34 Saying, Let us alone; what have we to do with thee, thou Jesus of Nazareth? art thou come to destroy us? I know thee who thou art; the Holy One of God.

The important thing in knowing God/Christ is to do His will. Follow commandments and do good works. As Paul says some profess to know God but its a sham and a waste:

Tit 1:16 They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
so just what are you saying whoders? that because Jesus condemned the Pharisees that the Christian should not take in knowledge? and that such knowledge does not lead to everlasting life.

I said what I said Robbie. Why did Jesus seem to only condemn the religious establishment who read the scriptures daily?

I'm still awaiting your answer.

Originally posted by yoctobyte

(John 17:3)This means everlasting life, their taking in knowledge of you, the only true God, and of the one whom you sent forth, Jesus Christ.

While I believe that reading the Bible, Studying, and Praying are very important disciplines, 'knowing' God is also... it is not about knowledge (book) only. I have not done any kind of exhaustiv ...[text shortened]... a relationship with him not just know about him, so sentiment is important as well as knowledge.

These sentiments are fine with the exception of course of the personal reference to alleged 'head knowledge' and Jehovahs witnesses which I will ignore this time.

First of all no one is negating the practice of prayer and meditation as a way of getting to know God, but one cannot meditate on an empty mind, for the Biblical process of meditation and reflection is entirely different from other forms where the goal is to empty the mind. All we know about God is written in scripture therefore if you want to get to know God or Jesus it appears to me that it is paramount that one studies the Bible. Indeed how else one can get to know God, you have not said.