Anti trinitarian texts

According to the Athanasian Creed, there are three divine Persons (the Father, the Son, the Holy Ghost), each said to be eternal, each said to be almighty, none greater or less than another, each said to be God, and yet together being but one God. Other statements of the dogma emphasize that these three “Persons” are not separate and distinct individuals but are three modes in which the divine essence exists. Thus some Trinitarians emphasize their belief that Jesus Christ is God, or that Jesus and the Holy Ghost are Jehovah.

(Philippians 2:5, 6) Keep this mental attitude in you that was also in Christ Jesus, who, although he was existing in God’s form, gave no consideration to a seizure, namely, that he should be equal to God.

(John 14:28) You heard that I said to you, I am going away and I am coming [back] to you. If you loved me, you would rejoice that I am going my way to the Father, because the Father is greater than I am.

(John 20:17) Jesus said to her: “Stop clinging to me. For I have not yet ascended to the Father. But be on your way to my brothers and say to them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father and to my God and your God.

(1 Corinthians 11:3) But I want you to know that the head of every man is the Christ, in turn the head of a woman is the man; in turn the head of the Christ is God.

(1 Corinthians 15:28) But when all things will have been subjected to him, then the Son himself will also subject himself to the One who subjected all things to him, that God may be all things to everyone.

would any of our trinitarian friends care to comment on how we may reconcile these verses to their doctrine?

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
According to the Athanasian Creed, there are three divine Persons (the Father, the Son, the Holy Ghost), each said to be eternal, each said to be almighty, none greater or less than another, each said to be God, and yet together being but one God. Other statements of the dogma emphasize that these three “Persons” are not separate and distinct individ ...[text shortened]... our trinitarian friends care to comment on how we may reconcile these verses to their doctrine?

(John 20:17) and say to them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father and to my God and your God.

That's what jesus told them to say?

Originally posted by tim88
(John 20:17) and say to them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father and to my God and your God.

That's what jesus told them to say?

Is that not what the scripture says?

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
Is that not what the scripture says?

"Well what do you think that means?".

Originally posted by tim88
"Well what do you think that means?".

What it says.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
According to the Athanasian Creed, there are three divine Persons (the Father, the Son, the Holy Ghost), each said to be eternal, each said to be almighty, none greater or less than another, each said to be God, and yet together being but one God. Other statements of the dogma emphasize that these three “Persons” are not separate and distinct individ ...[text shortened]... our trinitarian friends care to comment on how we may reconcile these verses to their doctrine?

Two problems: #1 You quoted from a corrupt translation. #2 The scripture doesn't teach anti-doctrine. There is no such thing as an anti trinitarian text.

The scripture says what it says for a reason. But you are using them for an unintended purpose. Jesus never said that the Father was greater than Himself for the purpose of correcting their misunderstanding of who He was.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
According to the Athanasian Creed, there are three divine Persons (the Father, the Son, the Holy Ghost), each said to be eternal, each said to be almighty, none greater or less than another, each said to be God, and yet together being but one God. Other statements of the dogma emphasize that these three “Persons” are not separate and distinct individ ...[text shortened]... our trinitarian friends care to comment on how we may reconcile these verses to their doctrine?

Hey Rob, the Jew's use a word that is only used in reference to God. The grammar of the word is singular plural. As there is no word in English that it can be translated into, can you give us your take on it.

You'll find a clear example on this where God is talking to Moses and He says, "I am who am" (this is the English version). The literal translation is 'I's am who am'.

I understand this doesn't prove Trinitarian texts, but it does prove the Jew's understood God as being more than a single entity in one being.

Originally posted by Pudgenik
Hey Rob, the Jew's use a word that is only used in reference to God. The grammar of the word is singular plural. As there is no word in English that it can be translated into, can you give us your take on it.

You'll find a clear example on this where God is talking to Moses and He says, "I am who am" (this is the English version). The literal translatio ...[text shortened]... xts, but it does prove the Jew's understood God as being more than a single entity in one being.

When God is spoken of as being one in the Hebrew, it is more like a collective or composite one than a singular one. I think it might be like one committee, but not exactly because we Christians say that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit is one God. However, we also say the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God.

Originally posted by RJHinds
When God is spoken of as being one in the Hebrew, it is more like a collective or composite one than a singular one. I think it might be like one committee, but not exactly because we Christians say that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit is one God. However, we also say the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God.

I understand your point. But the word used in Hebrew texts is clearly a singular plural noun. It is in reference to a plural singular entity.

Originally posted by Pudgenik
I understand your point. But the word used in Hebrew texts is clearly a singular plural noun. It is in reference to a plural singular entity.

I do not know anything about the Hebrew language other than it is written right to left, so I have to go by what I have read about it. I may not remember it exactly right.

The revelation of the Trinity is a great divine filter. On the outside of the filter is all of man's pride and self trust. It appears as nonsense that we speak of God as Triune.

On the inside of experience within the the filter are those who know God has come to live within them. And they cannot make any discernible distinction between the Father in them, the Son in them, and the Holy Spirit in them.

We know God has come to be in us. We cannot detect any difference between the Three of the Triune God.

Once again, the Apostle Paul speaks to the Corinthians about their experience of God indwelling them:

"But you are not in the flesh, but in the spirit [the regenerated human spirit] if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Yet if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not of Him. (v.9)

But if Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, the spirit [regenerated human spirit] is life because of righteousness. (v.10)

And if the Spirit of the One who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortals bodies through His Spirit who indwells you." (v.11) (Romans 8:9-11)

Who indwells the Christians ?
Who is the One who has come to live in them?

1.) The Spirit of God (v.9).

2.) The Spirit of Christ (v.9)

3.) Christ Himself (v.10)

4.) The Spirit of the One who raised Jesus from the dead (v.11)

Has the Father come to live in the believers?
Yes.

Ephesians 4:6 - "One God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and IN ALL."

That means "in all" the members of the one mystical Body of Christ (v.4)

Is Christ indwelling the Christians?
Yes.

Ephesians 3:17 - "That Christ may make His home in your hearts through faith ..."

Galatians 1:15,16 - "But when it pleased God, who set me apart from my mother's womb and called me through His grace, to reveal His Son in me."

Second Corinthians 13:5 - "Test yourselves whether you are in the faith; prove yourselves. Or do you not know that Jesus Christ is in you, unless you are disapproved."


What about the Father and the Son? Are both the Father and the Son within the Christians ?

Yes.
John 14:23 - "Jesus answered and said to him, If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word, and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make an abode with him."

We can detect no difference. We know God is within us since we were born again, since we came to be forgiven sinners receiving Jesus as our Lord and Savior. Praise the Lord.

And now the Holy Spirit is within us as the Lord -

"He who is joined to the Lord is one spirit." (1 Cor. 6:17)

"The Lord be with your spirit. Grace be with you." (2 Timothy 4:22)

Do you realize what will happen to you if you begin to proclaim by faith that indeed Jesus Christ lives in you ? First you invite Him into your heart.

Then each morning when you wake up you start the day by standing by faith on His promise - "Lord Jesus Christ, YOU live in me. Thankyou Lord Jesus Christ, YOU live within me."

Not sentimentally, but actually - Jesus Christ the risen and available Lord will make His home in your heart through faith.

This can be taken to the bank. This is trustworthy.

In the books of Acts the angel told the apostles to go to the temple and proclaim all the words of this new divine life they had received -

"Go and stand in the temple and speak to the people all the words of this life." (Acts 5:20)

And I am going to write it again still. One day it is going to click with some of you -

"the last Adam became a life giving Spirit" (1 Cor. 15:45)

Jesus of Nazareth is living and available. He is in a form in which He can enter into your innermost spiritual being and GIVE divine Life. He can GIVE God into you - Because "the last Adam [Christ] BECAME A LIFE GIVING SPIRIT."

Christ ... became a life giving Spirit. With Him there is a bountiful and rich and all-inclusive wonderful supply of everything we need. This is known as "the bountiful supply of the Spirit of Jesus Christ" (Phil. 1:19)

"For I know that for me this will turn out to salvation through your petition and the bountiful supply of the Spirit of Jesus Christ." (Phil 1:19)

Anyway, the born anew cannot tell any difference within between Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. We know God is within living spreading, operating and growing.

Originally posted by josephw
Two problems: #1 You quoted from a corrupt translation. #2 The scripture doesn't teach anti-doctrine. There is no such thing as an anti trinitarian text.

The scripture says what it says for a reason. But you are using them for an unintended purpose. Jesus never said that the Father was greater than Himself for the purpose of correcting their misunderstanding of who He was.

There is no problems please demonstrate how any one of those texts is corrupt. The texts clearly indicate that Christ is not equal to God and therfore refutes the trinity. You may like to comment on the actual verses that is why they are cited.

Originally posted by sonship
The revelation of the Trinity is a great divine filter. On the outside of the filter is all of man's pride and self trust. It appears as nonsense that we speak of God as Triune.

On the inside of experience within the the filter are those who know God has come to live within them. And they cannot make any discernible distinction between the Father in them ...[text shortened]... een Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. We know God is within living spreading, operating and growing.

You have failed to comment on a single text cited and instead introduce your dogma. The texts were cited because they refute your dogma. You may do better by commenting on them.

Originally posted by Pudgenik
Hey Rob, the Jew's use a word that is only used in reference to God. The grammar of the word is singular plural. As there is no word in English that it can be translated into, can you give us your take on it.

You'll find a clear example on this where God is talking to Moses and He says, "I am who am" (this is the English version). The literal translatio ...[text shortened]... xts, but it does prove the Jew's understood God as being more than a single entity in one being.

Once again you have failed to comment on a single scriptural reference that I cited and instead seek to introduce irrelevencies. If you have anything to say on the actual text that is cited then please do so.

Originally posted by josephw
Two problems: #1 You quoted from a corrupt translation. #2 The scripture doesn't teach anti-doctrine. There is no such thing as an anti trinitarian text.

The scripture says what it says for a reason. But you are using them for an unintended purpose. Jesus never said that the Father was greater than Himself for the purpose of correcting their misunderstanding of who He was.

Jesus never said the father is greater than I? Yes he did its in the text.