Originally posted by RJHindsAnd this entire conversation is much ado over nothing but man made religious arguments, religions ALL of which are totally man made and no god involved. And you all argue over all this as if it were real.
I already made my comment on the text. And all you could do was ignore it, Spanky.
You are ALL out in the cold and don't even know it.
Originally posted by sonhouseperhaps you have a comment on the cited texts?
And this entire conversation is much ado over nothing but man made religious arguments, religions ALL of which are totally man made and no god involved. And you all argue over all this as if it were real.
You are ALL out in the cold and don't even know it.
Originally posted by sonhouseBut it 's been a very cold winter. We need something to argue about to raise the temperature a little! 😕
And this entire conversation is much ado over nothing but man made religious arguments, religions ALL of which are totally man made and no god involved. And you all argue over all this as if it were real.
You are ALL out in the cold and don't even know it.
Originally posted by robbie carrobie1. "Christ is God’s Son and is inferior to him." Given in support of this position are these verses: "And lo, a voice from heaven, saying, ‘This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased’" (Matt. 3:17). "I proceeded and came forth from God" (John 8:42). "If you loved me, you would have rejoiced, because I go to the Father; for the Father is greater than I" (John 14:28). "I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God" (John 20:17). "The head of every man is Christ, the head of a woman is her husband, and the head of Christ is God" (1 Cor. 11:3). "When all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself will also be subjected to him who put all things under him, that God may be everything to every one" (1 Cor. 15:28).
According to the Athanasian Creed, there are three divine Persons (the Father, the Son, the Holy Ghost), each said to be eternal, each said to be almighty, none greater or less than another, each said to be God, and yet together being but one God. Other statements of the dogma emphasize that these three “Persons” are not separate and distinct individ ...[text shortened]... our trinitarian friends care to comment on how we may reconcile these verses to their doctrine?
At first glance these citations seem imposing. It does seem that Christ is inferior to God the Father in some sense. But the New Testament also has verses which clearly show Christ and the Father to be equals. For example, there is John 10:30: "I and the Father are one." Or, "He who has seen me has seen the Father" (John 14:9). Or, "All that the Father has is mine" (John 16:15). Or, "The Jews sought all the more to kill him, because he not only broke the Sabbath but also called God his Father, making himself equal with God" (John 5:18). Or, "[Jesus], though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be g.asped" (Phil. 2:6). These seem to contradict the other verses.
How do we make sense of all this? By keeping in mind that Jesus is both God and man. Some verses, such as these last five, refer exclusively to his Godhead. Others refer to his humanity. So far as he is God, Jesus is equal to the Father. Christ’s human nature, though, is created and is therefore inferior to the Father. But to focus on this aspect of Christ to the exclusion of his divine nature is a gross misunderstanding of who and what the Bible says Jesus Christ is. Other verses cited by the Witnesses, such as Matthew 3:17, show merely that Christ is God’s Son, not that he is inferior (in fact, John 5:18 shows that being God’s Son is being equal to God).
http://www.catholic.com/tracts/distinctive-beliefs-of-the-jehovahs-witnesses
Originally posted by tim88In some cases Jesus sounds superior because He is said to have created everything and He declares Himself to have all authority and to be the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End, and the Almighty.
1. "Christ is God’s Son and is inferior to him." Given in support of this position are these verses: "And lo, a voice from heaven, saying, ‘This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased’" (Matt. 3:17). "I proceeded and came forth from God" (John 8:42). "If you loved me, you would have rejoiced, because I go to the Father; for the Father is greater than I ...[text shortened]... equal to God).
http://www.catholic.com/tracts/distinctive-beliefs-of-the-jehovahs-witnesses
2 edits
Originally posted by tim88'I and the father are one', he also says the very same thing of the disciples, does that them make the disciples also equal to God?
1. "Christ is God’s Son and is inferior to him." Given in support of this position are these verses: "And lo, a voice from heaven, saying, ‘This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased’" (Matt. 3:17). "I proceeded and came forth from God" (John 8:42). "If you loved me, you would have rejoiced, because I go to the Father; for the Father is greater than I ...[text shortened]... equal to God).
http://www.catholic.com/tracts/distinctive-beliefs-of-the-jehovahs-witnesses
(John 17:21) in order that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in union with me and I am in union with you, that they also may be in union with us, in order that the world may believe that you sent me forth.
Its a very old and unsound trinitarian argument, the term one meaning unity and as the above text demonstrates it cannot mean equality unless of course you are willing to accept that the disciples are also equal and part of the trinity.
you of course have not commented on the meaning of any of the verses and instead do what most trinitarians do try to counter them with arguments supporting your perspective while ignoring those that do not,
'the father is greater than I', is hard to refute and rather harder to accept it seems. When you are willing to comment on its meaning let us know.
Originally posted by robbie carrobieHe does not say the very same thing of the disciples. He says He wish that they were one just as the Father and He are one. However, they are not one.
'I and the father are one', he also says the very same thing of the disciples, does that them make the disciples also equal to God?
(John 17:21) in order that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in union with me and I am in union with you, that they also may be in union with us, in order that the world may believe that you sent me forth ...[text shortened]... d rather harder to accept it seems. When you are willing to comment on its meaning let us know.
Originally posted by RJHindsthe point is you zombie drooler that the term the father and I are one denotes unity as is evidenced from the text that I cited and you have still failed to explain the rather embarrassing 'the father is greater than I', or any of the other texts for that matter. What can i expect, more drool?
He does not say the very same thing of the disciples. He says He wish that they were one just as the Father and He are one. However, they are not one.
Originally posted by robbie carrobieI've explained that many times. The problem with you is that you keep getting amnesia about it.
the point is you zombie drooler that the term the father and I are one denotes unity as is evidenced from the text that I cited and you have still failed to explain the rather embarrassing 'the father is greater than I', or any of the other texts for that matter. What can i expect, more drool?
Originally posted by vistesdChances are good that you are correct. I would add one thing though ;after the arguing and discussion we all go our separate ways and actually follow the commandments of Christ, the chief of which is love, love your neighbour and do good to all men. Thats the essence of the ecclesia of Christ and the Apostles.
.. But maybe—just maybe—the true ekklesia looks something like this place: you and me and all the squabbling Christians and non-Christians and atheists and whatever, and a bunch of them shouting that the others are not what they claim to be. ...
Originally posted by vistesdAll of the squabling Christians, Jews, JW's and the rest are like a big family. The older ones think they know God best, the middle ones feel they know and love God and nobody else does. And of course the younger crowd feel they got God pegged too.
Well, you know Rajk, I let certain Christians drive me from “the fold” years ago. Actually, maybe they are in the majority, and that’s okay. At least I thought they were probably the “True Christians™”, and I was not. And so I have presented my “nondualist” philosophy on here more in terms of Buddhism and Judaism than in terms of my original roots. You’ ...[text shortened]... nts. Maybe this is the real communion of the Christ. All of us. It’s a thought anyway.
What is most important to remeber is that there are many, many people in all of this that love God, and God loves all of us.