1. Joined
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    22 Apr '09 10:39
    Originally posted by Badwater
    Wrong, and at the very least I'd suggest you read The Origin Of Satan by Elaine Pagels.
    ===============================
    Wrong, and at the very least I'd suggest you read The Origin Of Satan by Elaine Pagels.
    ===================================


    I'll look it up. However, I have read The Invisible War by Dr. Danald Barnhouse years ago. And I have read Earth's Earliest Ages by G.H. Pember. Both scholarly works on the doctrine of Satan's history and existience.

    Anyway, the creep goes down in defeat under the crushing feet of the Lord Jesus. That's the most important thing.
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    22 Apr '09 11:03
    Originally posted by divegeester
    Satan is not referred to as "Satans" i.e. plural anywhere in the bible. The Legion of demons in the pigs were multiple demons but NOT Satan. Satan is always referred to in the specific and singular, often as the "enemy" or the "accuser" of man. That you would attempt to label Christians with the invention of Satanism makes me suspicious to be honest ...[text shortened]... light of men. 5 And the light shines in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
    i thought that according to scripture, Satan was initially a 'good angel', but because of his iniquity, in that he desired the worship and the adoration that belonged to god, he kind of became a megalomaniac, self consumed and totally vain, however very powerful, for revelation speaks of him dragging a third of the stars, and also Corinthians i think, could be wrong! speaks of him misleading the entire inhabited earth, blinding minds etc etc also there is a very interesting description in the book of Ezekiel which although directed towards the king of Tyre may have reference with regard to Satan and as Jaywill has also noted in the book of Job, a very ancient text.
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    22 Apr '09 15:461 edit
    Originally posted by divegeester
    Satan is not referred to as "Satans" i.e. plural anywhere in the bible. ....
    Umm, I know this. What you don't seem to know is that to the Hebrews a satan would be a member of the divine court called the satan. Plural. There are more than one. They were not monsters, animals, or even evil; they were adversaries and God's angels.

    And that's just for starters.

    Maybe you should read books other than the Bible? History? Sociology? Theology? It is always apparent when the unlearned comment.
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    22 Apr '09 15:521 edit
    Originally posted by jaywill
    [b]===============================
    Wrong, and at the very least I'd suggest you read The Origin Of Satan by Elaine Pagels.
    ===================================


    I'll look it up. However, I have read The Invisible War by Dr. Danald Barnhouse years ago. And I have read Earth's Earliest Ages by G.H. Pember. Both scholarly works on down in defeat under the crushing feet of the Lord Jesus. That's the most important thing.[/b]
    1) Dr. Elaine Pagels has a PhD in theology and is a scholar at Harvard; a very highly respected scholar at their seminary.

    2) Satan, as I presently understand him to be, has not gone down in crushing defeat. In fact it would seem that clearly has not happened and that Christianity is waiting, ever waiting, for the Christ to come out on top. If Satan exists and if that's what is supposed to happen, that is, and I'm more than a little skeptical on both points.
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    22 Apr '09 22:232 edits
    Originally posted by Badwater
    1) Dr. Elaine Pagels has a PhD in theology and is a scholar at Harvard; a very highly respected scholar at their seminary.

    2) Satan, as I presently understand him to be, has not gone down in crushing defeat. In fact it would seem that clearly has not happened and that Christianity is waiting, ever waiting, for the Christ to come out on top. If Sat ...[text shortened]... at's what is supposed to happen, that is, and I'm more than a little skeptical on both points.
    ==================================
    1) Dr. Elaine Pagels has a PhD in theology and is a scholar at Harvard; a very highly respected scholar at their seminary.
    =====================================


    That is all well and good. But Barnhouse and Pember were also doctor degreed and respected.

    ===================================
    2) Satan, as I presently understand him to be, has not gone down in crushing defeat. In fact it would seem that clearly has not happened and that Christianity is waiting, ever waiting, for the Christ to come out on top. If Satan exists and if that's what is supposed to happen, that is, and I'm more than a little skeptical on both points.
    ====================================


    Satan is defeated. The principles of spiritual warfare call for that defeat to be worked out subjectively in the lives of believers. I have experienced victory over his lies. And I have no doubt that his execution is inevitable.

    It is disappointing that your Harvard theologian did not impress you with the victory of Jesus the Son of God over the lies of Satan.

    While you are reading the good doctor you should give some equal time to the word of God and experiencing the victory of spiritual warfare in the prevailing church life.

    I will say this, the closer the time comes to the devil's actual execution the more furious and desperate he becomes.
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    22 Apr '09 22:314 edits
    Originally posted by Badwater
    =====================================
    Satanism is an extension, a logical conclusion, of that which was invented by Christians.
    ==========================================

    [b]Satan was worshipped as Beelezulbub. Beelzebul is a vicious pun on the word. One means "Lord of the dunghill" and the other means "Lord of the flies". I am not sure which is tal idea that brings us to present ideas, of the Christian Satan. They are not the same.
    [/b]You asked for a source of my contention that Beelzubul was worshipped and thus that was worship of Satan.

    This brief entry is in the Columbia Encyclopedia. But some of the phonetic indicators will not copy over for some technical reason.

    "Baal-zebub ... [Heb.,=lord of flies], a deliberate Hebrew distortion of the name of the god of Ekron in 2 Kings. In the Gospels of Mark and Luke, Beelzebul, the Greek form of the epithet Baal-zebul [Baal the Prince], is encountered. See Baal and Satan."

    He was the god of the Ekronites in the Old Testament.
  7. Joined
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    22 Apr '09 23:007 edits
    Originally posted by Badwater
    =====================================
    Satanism is an extension, a logical conclusion, of that which was invented by Christians.
    ==========================================

    [b]Satan was worshipped as Beelezulbub. Beelzebul is a vicious pun on the word. One means "Lord of the dunghill" and the other means "Lord of the flies". I am not sure which is tal idea that brings us to present ideas, of the Christian Satan. They are not the same.
    [/b] ==================================
    It is not at all clear in this puzzling presentation, where you use NT scripture to somehow illustrate an OT concept of Satan.
    =====================================


    What is wrong with using the NT scripture to aid in the understanding of the OT?

    The presentation should not, I think, be that puzzling.

    Beelzebul and Satan were interchangeable in the arguement Jesus was having with first century Jewish experts in Hebrew Scripture - the Pharisees. (see Matt. 12). Matthew recorded it. He didn't fictionalize it.


    They accused Jesus of casting out demons by the ruler of demons, Beelzebul. Jesus countered "How can Satan cast out Satan ?"

    Both the Pharisees and Jesus for that matter were familar with a Satanic kingdom of evil spirits over which Beelzebul (Satan) was a ruler.

    To this extent, there is little difference in the modern concept of Satan of many evangelical Christians and the ideas of some first century rabbis of the Pharisees' sect of Judaism.

    Now, a caveat: Judaism is not as monolithic as we sometimes assume. So of course different sects and different teachers had debates and different concepts. I am sure you could find some Jewish teachers who did not even acknowledge the world of spirits - ie. the Saducees.

    I do not suggest there was a monolithic concept of Satan. I do submit that the sect of Pharisees had a concept of Satan as the ruler of evil spirits. And that is NOT that different from modern evangelical Christian concepts.

    ===================
    I do not accept that he is a gentlier or kinder kind of cooperative assistant to God in Judaism who was "made" more evil by the Christian Gospels.

    Your words, not mine.
    ===========================


    Okay. I accept that. I tend to see the same arguments rehashed and sometimes anticipate where the debate is going.

    Don't want to put words in your mouth.

    ==================================
    What I said is that the role of the Hebrew satan and what they represent are very different from the Christian idea, the pivotal idea that brings us to present ideas, of the Christian Satan. They are not the same.
    ====================================


    Certain essential characteristics are the same though.

    He slanders man to God. He slanders God to man. Sometimes it is subtle and you have to discern it.

    In Job, Satan slanders man to God, accusing Job of only loving God because of his material wealth that God has granted him. He slanders God as unfair to put a hedge around Job.

    He comes into the heavenly council as a trouble maker, walking up and down on the earth for the sole purpose of opposing God's work in the lives of His saints.

    In Zechariah he is there to accuse the high priest Joshua. He often has some legitimate ground upon which to accuse.

    Certain essential characteristics are the same both in OT and NT.
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    23 Apr '09 05:36
    Originally posted by jaywill
    Certain essential characteristics are the same though.

    He slanders man to God. He slanders God to man. Sometimes it is subtle and you have to discern it.

    In Job, Satan slanders man to God, accusing Job of only loving God because of his material wealth that God has granted him. He slanders God as unfair to put a hedge around Job.

    He comes into ...[text shortened]... upon which to accuse.

    Certain essential characteristics are the same both in OT and NT.
    My position is that they are not the same; further, I reject this modern notion of the entity of Satan that took root with fervor in the American Primitivism movement and has never let go.
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    23 Apr '09 09:401 edit
    Originally posted by Badwater
    It is always apparent when the unlearned comment.
    Nice put-down.....
  10. Joined
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    23 Apr '09 10:275 edits
    Originally posted by Badwater
    My position is that they are not the same; further, I reject this modern notion of the entity of Satan that took root with fervor in the American Primitivism movement and has never let go.
    =================================
    My position is that they are not the same; further, I reject this modern notion of the entity of Satan that took root with fervor in the American Primitivism movement and has never let go.
    ====================================


    I am basing my concepts from the revelation of the Bible. I do not derive my understanding about the matter from ie. Dante or Milton or pop culture or extrabiblical ideas even of Christians.

    So I do not really know what you may mean by American Primitivism's ideas about Satan. I don't know what that may mean to you. My concepts of this being are derived from a careful study of what the Bible reveals.

    What would be more of an interest to me would be to discuss the nature of Christ's victory over Satan and how the church can utilize that victory, as I have witnessed.

    Advertizing stuff about Satan just for the sake of talking about Satan is repulsive to me. I am only interested in the topic in so far as it helps people to see the victorious Lordship of Christ.

    "Now is the judgment of this world; now shall the ruler of this world be cast out. And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself." (John 12:31,32)

    "Now the God of peace will crush Satan under your feet shortly. The grace of our Lord Jesus be with you." (Rom. 16:20)

    "And I heard a loud voice in heaven saying, Now is come the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our Lord and of His Christ, for the accuser of our brothers has been cast down, who accuses them before our God day and night.

    And they overcame him because of the blood of the Lamb and because of the word of their testimony, and they loved not their soul-life even unto death." (Rev. 12:10,11)
  11. Joined
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    23 Apr '09 10:493 edits
    Originally posted by Badwater
    My position is that they are not the same; further, I reject this modern notion of the entity of Satan that took root with fervor in the American Primitivism movement and has never let go.
    ===========================
    My position is that they are not the same;
    ===================================


    My position is that this being is exposed some in the revelation of the Old Testament. Then he is further exposed and made naked in the further revelation of the New Testament.

    He hides in darkness. The light of the word of God exposes Satan. As the revelation of God's eternal purpose progresses so the exposure of this enemy of God and man is progressively exposed to the light of truth.

    There is no need to labor on an exact equivalance between the OT and the NT in every detail about Satan. We can see through the revelation of the New Testament a clearer disclosure of his essential tactics seen already in the Old Testament.

    He was there in the earliest creation of man. He was there before the creation of man. He knows that he cannot defeat God. His only desire is to take as many hated human beings and other beings with him to his terrible destiny.

    From Job to Revelation there is not that much difference. He just grew stronger. That is why you see a serpent in Genesis but a dragon in Revelation. The idea is that he only grew in power as a murderer and a deceiver.

    Revelation tells us that "the ancient serpent" was the Devil and Satan. That for me is the end of the matter. That for me is totally authoritative. I don't need a Harvard professor to contradict that, or even confirm it for that matter. It is clear.

    ""And the great dragon was cast down, the ancient serpent, he who is called the Devil and Satan, he who deceives the whole inhabited earth, and his angels were cast down with him." (Rev. 12:9)

    The "ancient serpent", the being in the garden in Genesis, is Satan the deceiver of the whole inhabited earth.

    Frankly, I think he is still deceiving people by inserting some kind of concept that somehow, the OT and the NT are not talking about the same evil being. I regard this popular Internet teaching as more Satanic hiding out under the cover of human ignorance void of the clear revelation of God's word.

    The Bible strips him naked. We see him. And Jesus is Lord. Jesus overcame him and that as a MAN. Shame on the little snake. Shame on Satan. He was defeated by the Man - the Godman Jesus.
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    23 Apr '09 13:26
    This is an article written in 1971 by LaVey. I've always thought his disdain for the occult and the way it was practiced was interesting:

    “When anyone invokes the devil with intentional ceremonies, the devil comes and is seen. To escape dying from horror at that sight, to escape catalepsy or idiocy, one must already be mad....There are two houses in heaven, and the tribunal of Satan is restrained in its extremes by the Senate of Divine Wisdom.

    “This explains the bizarre nature and atrocious character of the operations of Black Magic....the diabolical masses, administration of sacraments to reptiles, effusions of blood, human sacrifices and other monstrosities, which are the very essence and reality of Goetia or Nigromancy. Such are the practices which from all time have brought down upon sorcerers the just reputation of the laws. Black Magic is really only a graduated combination of sacrileges and murders designed for the permanent perversion of a human will and for the realization in a living man of the hideous phantom of the demon. It is therefore, properly speaking, the religion of the devil, the cultus of darkness, hatred of good carried to the height of paroxism; it is the incarnation of death and the persistent creation of hell.”

    from Transcendental Magic by Eliphas Levi


    This is the writing of Eliphas Levi, one of the sustainers of occult unwisdom of the nineteenth century. In Levi’s works we are confronted by page after page extolling the merits of Jesus Christ as king and master. Any Satanist who has ever read Transcendental Magic cannot help but see Levi’s great contribution to Christian theology and Dennis Wheatley.

    I MEANT what I said in The Satanic Bible, when I referred to such prior garbage as “sanctimonious fraud—guilt-ridden ramblings and esoteric gibberish by chroniclers of magical lore unable or unwilling to present an objective view of the subject.” Yet it not only saddens but antagonizes me when I find a member impressively stating his adherence to or compatibility with these worthless ravings.

    It is bad enough to hear of the “great teachings” of Aleister Crowley—who hypocritically called himself by the Christian devil’s number, yet steadfastly denied any Satanic connections, who wrote and had published millions of words of Kabbalisitic mulligatawny, the distilled wisdom of which could have been contained in a single volume of once-popular E. Haldeman Julius’ Little Blue Books (which sold for a nickel). Strange, how seldom one hears plaudits for Crowley’s poetry, worthy of inclusion with the likes of James Thompson, Baudelaire, Clark Ashton Smith, and Robert E. Howard. If Crowley was a magician, it was the beauty of his creative art which made him so, not his drug-befuddled callings-up of Choronzon, et al. Unfortunately, his followers today have taken up his worst, while neglecting his best.

    I get fed up to the stomach-turning point, listening to would-be students waxing eloquent over Israel Regardie’s Golden Dawn, with its ponderous bulk blotched by sigil after sigil of holy esoterica. The very jacket design fairly screams out, “Oh God, how good and light and righteous we are!” with a rayed cross of a magnitude that should have awakened Bela Lugosi back to life out of sheer shock. Mr. Regardie, like his white-light predecessors, rambles through five pounds of accumulated Kabbalistic toxemia and burned-out Rosicrucianism before his literary enema yields a scant few pages of today’s dinner, namely, a watered-down version of the Enochian Keys.

    No, I cannot accept the worth of these “masters,” who couldn’t even get off a semi-logical thought without falling victim to what H.G. Wells superbly defines as “big thinks.” These works were around when I wrote The Satanic Bible. I had even read them, as well as Montague Summers, Rollo Ahmed, Ophiel, Bardo, Butler, Hall, etc., etc., who wrote reams of arcane rhetoric and produced plates of pretty symbols, yet couldn’t seem to say what they meant nor mean what they said. Somehow, an occasional member who has “discovered” an occult “master’s” writings of the past, forgets all about those opening lines in the preface to The Satanic Bible, assuming, I guess, that I didn’t know about their new-found bit of esoterica when I took pen in hand.

    At the tender age of twelve, when I grew disenchanted halfway through the Albertus Magnus and a third of the way through the Sixth and Seventh Books of Moses, it occurred to me there must be “deeper stuff,” so I delved. Alas, I found the deeper stuff was deeper all right, and piled higher as well. For every page of meat it seemed there were a hundred pages of filler, adding up to a pretty, plump, but decidely ersatz hunk of baloney.

    I wrote The Satanic Bible because I looked for such a book all my life, and, unable to find it, concluded that if I ever expected to read what I was seeking, I would have to write it myself. The same principles applied with The Compleat Witch. (Now titled The Satanic Witch—ed.).

    Summing up, if you NEED to steep yourselves in occult lore, despite this diatribe, by all means do so. But do it as a ritual in itself, i.e., objectively towards subjective ends! read on, knowing that you won’t learn a damn thing in principle from Levi, Crowley, Regardie, (or Sybil Leek either!) that isn’t extended one-hundred fold in The Satanic Bible or The Compleat Witch, but that you’ll have the spooky fun, ego-food, and involvement which invariably accompanies a curriculum concerned more with the gathering of ingredients than the application of principles.

    Anton LaVey
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    12 May '09 21:331 edit
    Being a bit of a metal fan I see a lot this LaVey Satanism. But i think its a rather stupid religion: As fanfabians pointed out you have to be religious / Christian to believe in it.

    On the plus I read he critised the 10 commandments for making every human desire sin, they are quite systematic in this. Trying to live by 2000 year old dogma is foolish. I dislike religions ( Jewish / Christian Muslim) influence with things like drugs, homosexuality. These are the individuals choice, and have existed long before them.

    But its a very selfish religion, i read its 'commandments' on wikipedia and they serve to isolate there followers, I think it's unwittingly or not, Christian propaganda, as it trys to isolate those who disagree with them.
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    16 May '09 18:52
    Originally posted by Black Star Uchess
    Being a bit of a metal fan I see a lot this LaVey Satanism. But i think its a rather stupid religion: As fanfabians pointed out you have to be religious / Christian to believe in it.
    *sigh*
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