Originally posted by Conrau KWell, golly! It sounds like everybody is really a secret Catholic and nobody burns in hell after all. Isn't that sweet.
Nor does Divine Providence deny the helps necessary for salvation to those who, without blame on their part, have not yet arrived at an explicit knowledge of God and with His grace strive to live a good life. Whatever good or truth is found amongst them is looked upon by the Church as a preparation for the Gospel.(20*) She knows that it is given by Him who ...[text shortened]... a/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_const_19641121_lumen-gentium_en.html
Originally posted by rwingettNo, but I can see your point. There seems to be very
Well, golly! It sounds like everybody is really a secret Catholic and nobody burns in hell after all. Isn't that sweet.
little "truth in advertising" when it comes to denominations these days. But I look at this as a good thing. Though I'm a member of a Mo. Synod church, there are parts of Lutheran theology that I agree with, and some parts I most definitely do not (the absolute necessity of baptism to go to heaven, consubstantiation during Communion, a papal view of the Antichrist). Some Baptist tenets I agree with, as well as many United Methodist and Presbyterian (once saved always saved, Jesus chooses us not we choose Him). I know that somewhere there must be a dividing line separating "Christians" from non-Christians; I just am not sure where that line is. Therefore, the buffet style theology suits me best.
Originally posted by rwingettNot quite. Lumen Gentium does not say that everyone will be saved; it merely raises the possibility that all people can be saved. But, even though allowing that atheists can be saved, the authors still warn that atheists can be deceived by the 'Evil One' or be exposed to despair (para. 16.) The overall conclusion is that participation in the Church and the sacraments, along with Marian devotion and spreading the Gospel, is the still most efficacious way to salvation.
Well, golly! It sounds like everybody is really a secret Catholic and nobody burns in hell after all. Isn't that sweet.
Originally posted by buckkyThe Catholic Church certainly does teach that it is the 'one true catholic and apostolic church'; it also teaches that there is 'no salvation outside the Church'. But this has never meant that non-Catholics will burn in hell.
Is the Catholic the churuch the one true church, and all others are just messing around playing church ? That's the way I understood it growing up.
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Originally posted by Conrau KBut this has never meant that non-Catholics will burn in hell.
The Catholic Church certainly does teach that it is the 'one true catholic and apostolic church'; it also teaches that there is 'no salvation outside the Church'. But this has never meant that non-Catholics will burn in hell.
Precisely because Jesus Himself is non-Catholic.
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Originally posted by no1marauder============================
Jesus Himself was non-Christian; he was a practicing Jew.
Jesus Himself was non-Christian; he was a practicing Jew.
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A "practicing Jew" was to love God with his whole soul, his whole mind, his whole strength, his whole heart.
Who else in human history loved God (His Father) so absolutely as Jesus?
He is the Christ, the Head of all Christians and the Ultimate Jew too.
Originally posted by jaywillNo. 1 is right. It appears that Christianity did not ultimately break with Judaism until late in the 1st century. The earliest followers of Jesus were all Jewish. Jesus most likely saw himself as a reformer working within Judaism and not as the founder of a new religion. Christianity did not develop a separate identity until they invented the mythology of the "atoning death and resurrection."
[b]============================
Jesus Himself was non-Christian; he was a practicing Jew.
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A "practicing Jew" was to love God with his whole soul, his whole mind, his whole strength, his whole heart.
Who else in human history loved God (His Father) so absolutely as Jesus?
He is the Christ, the Head of all Christians and the Ultimate Jew too.[/b]
Originally posted by Conrau KIt sure sounds like those
The Catholic Church certainly does teach that it is the 'one true catholic and apostolic church'; it also teaches that there is 'no salvation outside the Church'. But this has never meant that non-Catholics will burn in hell.
outside the church will burn. I would love to believe that the Catholic church has the liberal view you mention, but all my experience with them has been different . When you get right down to it, and ask them some of the troubleing questions, they all admit that there is one way or the "hellway". Without the church you stand next to no chance of a decent afterlife.
Originally posted by buckkyIt sure sounds like those
It sure sounds like those
outside the church will burn. I would love to believe that the Catholic church has the liberal view you mention, but all my experience with them has been different . When you get right down to it, and ask them some of the troubleing questions, they all admit that there is one way or the "hellway". Without the church you stand next to no chance of a decent afterlife.
outside the church will burn.
I have no idea how it could sound like that at all. I have quoted a major Vatican II document, voted by the majority of the 2000 bishops, which explicitly says that Protestants, Jews, Muslims and atheists can be saved.
I would love to believe that the Catholic church has the liberal view you mention, but all my experience with them has been different .
It is a "liberal" interpretation that can be found in the Early Church and which has been explicitly supported by the recent Popes.
Without the church you stand next to no chance of a decent afterlife.
Yes, of course. But that is an entirely different matter. The Catholic Church does teach that there is 'no salvation outside the Church'. But that does not preclude, and has never precluded, that non-Catholics can be saved.
Originally posted by Conrau KI looked through the document Lumen Gentium. I cant see anywhere that explicitly says that.
....I have no idea how it could sound like that at all. I have quoted a major Vatican II document, voted by the majority of the 2000 bishops, which explicitly says that Protestants, Jews, Muslims and atheists can be saved...
Do you mind quoting the section you are referring to ?