1. Standard memberchaney3
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    02 Aug '16 23:23
    I was handed a pamphlet today from a member of a Trinity bible chuch. The pamphlet is titled "Are You Sure"? Inside it asks...are you sure about Heaven? It goes on to say that if you cannot answer with a firm 'yes' to that question, to say this prayer:

    "Dear Lord, I know that I'm a sinner, and that Jesus died on the cross to pay for my sin. Please come into my heart and save me, in Jesus' name, Amen.

    Directly underneath this prayer it states: Glory! It's great to be a Christian.

    So, is that all that is required? Say that prayer?

    Most of you know how I am struggling with the identity of Jesus, and it's because I think it matters. However, this Trinity church pamphlet makes no mention or obligation to any deity attached to Jesus, or whether that even matters.

    Is becoming a Christian this simple? With no emphasis on whether Jesus and God are the same or not?

    Just ask Jesus into your heart....and that's it? No matter what your own perception of Jesus is?
  2. Standard memberkaroly aczel
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    02 Aug '16 23:581 edit
    Originally posted by chaney3
    I was handed a pamphlet today from a member of a Trinity bible chuch. The pamphlet is titled "Are You Sure"? Inside it asks...are you sure about Heaven? It goes on to say that if you cannot answer with a firm 'yes' to that question, to say this prayer:

    "Dear Lord, I know that I'm a sinner, and that Jesus died on the cross to pay for my sin. Please come ...[text shortened]... ust ask Jesus into your heart....and that's it? No matter what your own perception of Jesus is?
    So just brainwash yourself to have a more definite outlook.

    I would suggest that 'heaven' , if there is such a place, is found after much confusion and doubt.

    But hey, don't get me wrong, if JC works for you then that's great. I have seen the power of this strong idea and it genuinely improve people's lives.
  3. Joined
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    03 Aug '16 03:021 edit
    Originally posted by chaney3
    I was handed a pamphlet today from a member of a Trinity bible chuch. The pamphlet is titled "Are You Sure"? Inside it asks...are you sure about Heaven? It goes on to say that if you cannot answer with a firm 'yes' to that question, to say this prayer:

    "Dear Lord, I know that I'm a sinner, and that Jesus died on the cross to pay for my sin. Please come ...[text shortened]... ust ask Jesus into your heart....and that's it? No matter what your own perception of Jesus is?
    You have to stick with what scripture says, or what it doesn't say.

    It doesn't say, ever, not once, that Jesus needs to "come into my heart and save me".

    It does say, quite unequivocally "repent and be baptised, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of your sins".

    It does not say "be baptised in the titles of father, son and Holy Spirit.

    It does say, (Jesus speaking) "unless you believe that I AM, you will die in your sins.

    It does say "salvation is found in no one else, for there is NO OTHER NAME given to mankind by which we may be saved."

    It does say "if you believe in your heart (I.e. sincerely) and confess with your mouth that Jesus is LORD (Jehovah incarnate), you will be saved"

    So, belief in who Jesus is and the public identification with him through the use of his name, evidenced initially by baptism in his name, (not titles F, S & HG)

    Whether you believe in the trinitarian explaination of who Jesus is, or whether you believe in the oneness explaination, is important but not for salvation. What is important is belief in who Jesus is and confessing it. If Jesus is just a man, then all Christians are still dead in their sins.
  4. Standard membersonship
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    03 Aug '16 12:073 edits
    Originally posted by divegeester
    You have to stick with what scripture says, or what it doesn't say.


    We are certainly glad that God has given us the Scripture as our guide.


    It doesn't say, ever, not once, that Jesus needs to "come into my heart and save me".


    It does say Paul's prayer was that Christ would make His home in our hearts by faith though.

    " That Christ may make His home in your hearts through faith." (Eph. 3:17)


    1.) Should Christ make His home in the unbeliever's heart through faith ?

    2.) One one is a Christian already, should Christ make His home in their heart through faith ?

    My answer to both questions would be Yes. He should come into the heart of man and make Himself at home with more and more authority to arrange in our hearts His matters as He wills.



    It does say, quite unequivocally "repent and be baptised, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of your sins".


    Yes, the Bible says that.

    Actually the "heart" of man is something specific. The "heart" in the Bible is composed of the mind, the will, the emotion, plus the conscience. These four components of our being comprise the "heart" if you looked up all the verses where "heart" is used.

    So when the Scripture says "believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead" that is an action of the mind - "believing". And such action of the mind and therefore the heart, along with confession, Paul says will result in one being saved.

    " That if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved." (Rom. 10:9)


    New believers should be baptized of course.
  5. Standard membersonship
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    03 Aug '16 12:10

    It does not say "be baptised in the titles of father, son and Holy Spirit.


    No it does not. In fact it does not even say [plural] names. It says into the name [singular].

    What is the name ? Father - Son - Holy Spirit.

    I can anticipate a protest from you. The disciples baptized upon the name of Jesus, or in the name of Jesus. The book of Acts uses a few different prepositions, I think, but usually "the name of Jesus".

    The Name denotes the Person. So plunging people into the Name of Jesus is immersing them also into the Father - Son - Holy Spirit.

    The person into whose heart Christ makes His home, and continues to make His home cannot detect any difference within. He cannot discern any separation between Father - Son - Holy Spirit whatsoever.

    He can see the distinction but he can detect no separation.

    " And the Lord is the Spirit. (2 Cor. 3:17)


    That's written too.

    " .. for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life" (2 Cor. 3:6b)

    "the last Adam became a life giving Spirit." ( 1 Cor. 15:45b)


    These are written too.


    It does say, (Jesus speaking) "unless you believe that I AM, you will die in your sins.

    It does say "salvation is found in no one else, for there is NO OTHER NAME given to mankind by which we may be saved."


    And the name denotes the Person.

    Do you know Stephen cried out when he was being stoned to Jesus (Acts 7:59) [/b]

    " And they stoned Stephen as he called upon the Lord and said, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit !"


    i bet that this was not the first time Stephen called out to the Lord Jesus praying. I think he had a long previous history of praying out to Jesus. Interestingly Paul said that saints also called "Abba Father".

    " ..., but you have received a spirit of sonship in which we cry, Abba Father! The Spirit Himself witnesses with our spirit that we are children of God. (Rom. 8:15b,16)

    "And because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into our hearts, crying, Abba, Father !" (Gal. 4:5)


    Whether the saints called out "Lord Jesus" praying to Jesus or cried out "Abba Father" petitioning and praying out to the Father, they could discern only One Divine God.

    These things are written too. We can cry out "Lord Jesus" or cry "Abba Father" and we're in the realm of the Name - Father - Son - Holy Spirit.
  6. Standard membersonship
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    03 Aug '16 12:10
    At our Lord's table meeting each first day of the week, we often and usually dedicate the first part of the meeting to worship the Lord Jesus - remembering Him. Then we offer up with the Son our praises to the Father. There is a sweet distinction. But we sure cannot tell any separation exists.

    We worship the Father towards the end of that meeting as we feel led by Hebrews 2:12)

    ' ... " I will declare Your name [Faher] to My brothers in the midst of the church I will sing hymns of praise to You." (Heb. 2:12)


    The Triune God is so sweet !


    It does say "if you believe in your heart (I.e. sincerely) and confess with your mouth that Jesus is LORD (Jehovah incarnate), you will be saved"


    Amen to God incarnate. He is the assurance of salvation for certain.


    So, belief in who Jesus is and the public identification with him through the use of his name, evidenced initially by baptism in his name, (not titles F, S & HG)


    You can baptize men in the Name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.
    Or you can pray out in faith that you plunge them into the name of Jesus.

    What is important is that both the baptized one and the ones doing the baptizing exercise faith.

    Some of the sqabbles over what to pronounce during a baptism are more about someone not wanting to play second fiddle to someone else or some dispute about religious turfs.

    Behind some seemingly doctrinal debates is often some kind of envy over position or jealously over hierarchy which need not and should not exist in the Body of Christ in the first place.


    Whether you believe in the trinitarian explaination of who Jesus is, or whether you believe in the oneness explaination, is important but not for salvation. What is important is belief in who Jesus is and confessing it. If Jesus is just a man, then all Christians are still dead in their sins.


    It does help to know the word too though - what is written.
  7. SubscriberSuzianne
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    03 Aug '16 12:531 edit
    Originally posted by chaney3
    I was handed a pamphlet today from a member of a Trinity bible chuch. The pamphlet is titled "Are You Sure"? Inside it asks...are you sure about Heaven? It goes on to say that if you cannot answer with a firm 'yes' to that question, to say this prayer:

    "Dear Lord, I know that I'm a sinner, and that Jesus died on the cross to pay for my sin. Please come ...[text shortened]... ust ask Jesus into your heart....and that's it? No matter what your own perception of Jesus is?
    Trinitarians are good Christians. Unitarians are good Christians.

    To believe in Jesus as the Son of God, you must believe there is a God. This means you probably also believe the Bible is the Word of God.

    Your OP also stresses a difference between those whom Rajk calls "mouth worshippers" (those who proclaim Jesus and call it a day) and those who believe in their heart that Jesus, the Son of God, died for our sins and was raised on the third day, defeating death and heralding the Kingdom of God. He is hope for a desperate world.

    I'm of the opinion that yes, if you allow Jesus into your heart then things will change for you. He will help you to seek him out and learn about him and the plan he has for your life.

    Many here will give you their "take" driven by their "God politics". But it is far more simple than any of that. For Christians, Jesus is our Savior, our Mentor, our Hope and our Life. If you believe this and want to let Jesus into your heart and into your life, then, by all means, take the plunge and you will not be sorry. But don't do it if you're not ready. This is not just another decision you can decide halfway and then next week decide you were wrong and go back to your old ways. Show Him and yourself enough respect to not waste your and His time if you're not serious. But He loves you and will show you the Light. Truly, all you need is to believe in your heart. The rest will follow.

    Let me be clear. I was brought to Christ in college by a couple of sorority sisters who were also involved in Campus Crusade for Christ. They have distributed perhaps millions of pamphlets exactly like this across college campuses all over America. They are non-denominational. They believe that bringing people to Christ is the most important part. What denomination, or what 'flavor', of Christian these people become is entirely up to them and wherever Christ leads them. What flock these sheep join is not nearly as important as bringing them to the Shepherd in the first place.
  8. Standard memberKellyJay
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    03 Aug '16 15:32
    Originally posted by chaney3
    I was handed a pamphlet today from a member of a Trinity bible chuch. The pamphlet is titled "Are You Sure"? Inside it asks...are you sure about Heaven? It goes on to say that if you cannot answer with a firm 'yes' to that question, to say this prayer:

    "Dear Lord, I know that I'm a sinner, and that Jesus died on the cross to pay for my sin. Please come ...[text shortened]... ust ask Jesus into your heart....and that's it? No matter what your own perception of Jesus is?
    Cheap Grace, and even if one were to *just* say that prayer I doubt the answer to the
    question "are you sure" would really change. That was done to one of my brothers during
    a conversation he was having. The person he was talking too had him repeat that line
    while they were talking then he called him a Christian.

    He called me after that and asked if it was real, I asked him if he wanted to serve the Lord
    he said no. I'm quite sure too that the other guy walked away thinking he converted him
    too. There is more to it than just saying a line, believing in your heart matters!
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    03 Aug '16 16:21
    Originally posted by sonship

    It does not say "be baptised in the titles of father, son and Holy Spirit.


    No it does not. In fact it does not even say [plural] names. It says into the name [singular].

    What is the name ? Father - Son - Holy Spirit.

    I can anticipate a protest from you. The disciples baptized upon the name of [b]Jesus,
    or in the name of Jesus ...[text shortened]... b] or cry "Abba Father" and we're in the realm of the Name - Father - Son - Holy Spirit.[/b]
    I've been banging on at you about Mathew 28 and the Name of the FS&HG being Jesus for years, suddenly you seem to be saying the same thing
  10. Standard memberchaney3
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    03 Aug '16 21:36
    Originally posted by divegeester
    You have to stick with what scripture says, or what it doesn't say.

    It doesn't say, ever, not once, that Jesus needs to "come into my heart and save me".

    It does say, quite unequivocally "repent and be baptised, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of your sins".

    It does not say "be baptised in the titles of father, ...[text shortened]... is and confessing it. If Jesus is just a man, then all Christians are still dead in their sins.
    Where does it say in the bible that Jesus is 'Jehovah incarnate'?

    And your last sentence stating that if Jesus is "just a man".....we are dead in our sins, is basically you believing that Jesus IS God in some way or another...and for those like checkbaiter, and possibly me, we're wrong?

    Please provide the bible scriptute for the Jehovah incarnate comment, because that's news to me.
  11. Standard memberchaney3
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    03 Aug '16 22:03
    Originally posted by Suzianne
    Trinitarians are good Christians. Unitarians are good Christians.

    To believe in Jesus as the Son of God, you must believe there is a God. This means you probably also believe the Bible is the Word of God.

    Your OP also stresses a difference between those whom Rajk calls "mouth worshippers" (those who proclaim Jesus and call it a day) and those who be ...[text shortened]... these sheep join is not nearly as important as bringing them to the Shepherd in the first place.
    I googled Unitarian just to make sure I knew what it means...and I would definitely be leaning toward that view of God and Jesus....much more than the Trinity...or what Dive believes (Godhead? Not sure exactly what that is still).

    I can't fully explain why I have hesitated for so long to take this 'plunge', but it's likely I was trying to understand the Trinity before commiting, which I still don't.

    You seem to be flexible on the matter...I wonder if Trinitarians would feel the same.
  12. Standard memberchaney3
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    03 Aug '16 22:10
    Originally posted by sonship
    At our Lord's table meeting each first day of the week, we often and usually dedicate the first part of the meeting to worship the Lord Jesus - remembering Him. Then we offer up with the Son our praises to the Father. There is a sweet distinction. But we sure cannot tell any separation exists.

    We worship the Father towards the end of that meeting as we ...[text shortened]... ill dead in their sins. [/quote]

    It does help to know the word too though - what is written.
    You make the effort to worship God and Jesus seperately, sort of like giving each of them their own 'quality time', which I find interesting for a believer in the Trinity.
  13. SubscriberFMF
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    03 Aug '16 23:322 edits
    Originally posted by chaney3
    I googled Unitarian just to make sure I knew what it means.
    You've been wittering on here for months about "the Trinity" etc. and a couple of days ago you said "My search is far more than this forum. Books, pastors, priests and real life discussions, and all of it is NO different than this forum" and now here you are saying you had to Google the word "Unitarian" after reading a post by Suzianne? 😕
  14. Standard membersonship
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    03 Aug '16 23:47
    Originally posted by chaney3
    You make the effort to worship God and Jesus seperately, sort of like giving each of them their own 'quality time', which I find interesting for a believer in the Trinity.
    There is no strain or effort hardly. It flows seamlessly and quite comfortably. No puzzled minds or wrinkled eyebrows. Just sweet enjoyment and praises in prayer.

    Our songs at that time may shift to be more centered on the Father.
  15. Standard memberchaney3
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    03 Aug '16 23:56
    Originally posted by FMF
    You've been wittering on here for months about "the Trinity" etc. and a couple of days ago you said "My search is far more than this forum. Books, pastors, priests and real life discussions, and all of it is NO different than this forum" and now here you are saying you had to Google the word "Unitarian" after reading a post by Suzianne? 😕
    As I said...."I wanted to make sure I knew what it means". And I'm glad I did. I like the definition.
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