"At greater cost than humanly imaginable"

@fmf said
God was still in "Heaven" surely? And he knew what was going to happen, right? This narrative doesn't sound unimaginable at all.

In my view, Jesus Christ was/is God. That is the position of everyone who believes in the Trinity and so God did indeed give up Heaven, lower His stature to that of a man and endure being whipped and nailed to a cross to save people who despised Him.

You can’t imagine what it’s like to be God and what Heaven is like and I honestly don’t think you can imagine *voluntarily* being whipped like a dog and nailed to a cross to save people who hate you.

@fmf said
What I said was I don't find what you are describing to be beyond the human imagination in any way. Given God's supposed indestructibility and omniscience, I don't see how there is an unimaginable "cost" at all.

Well let’s look at it from God the Father’s perspective who loves His Son with a perfect love.

Could you imagine the torment of seeing your son be tortured and crucified by people who hate you and him, knowing he could escape at any time but was going through with it to save the very people who hate you and him?

@fmf said
I could imagine sacrificing my life - if it would help - to save the lives of strangers on a train, even if I disliked them, yes. I wouldn't be keen on doing it, but it's certainly not beyond human imagination.

Would you push your son in front of an oncoming train to save a mob of people farther up the tracks who hate him and you?

Edit: Can you imagine the mindset required to do that?

@pb1022 said
Could you imagine the torment of seeing your son be tortured and crucified by people who hate you and him, knowing he could escape at any time but was going through with it to save the very people who hate you and him?

Can I imagine the torment of seeing my son killed? Yes. It is not humanly unimaginable. I also imagine the torment ["cost"] would be significantly less to me if I knew he was going to survive it and rise from the dead..

@fmf said
Can I imagine the torment of seeing my son killed? Yes. It is not humanly unimaginable. I also imagine the torment ["cost"] would be significantly less to me if I knew he was going to survive it and rise from the dead..

Not just killed.

Tortured and crucified by people who hate him and who was going through it to save them.

@pb1022 said
Would you push your son in front of an oncoming train to save a mob of people farther up the tracks who hate him and you?

I don't think my own personal instincts would result in that action, no, but such a situation and reaction is not beyond the human imagination. What's more, the dilemma would certainly not be so dire if I knew my son wasn't actually going to be dead when all was said and done.

@pb1022 said
Not just killed.

Tortured and crucified by people who hate him and who was going through it to save them.

It is not beyond the human imagination.

@fmf said
I don't think my own personal instincts would result in that action, no, but such a situation and reaction is not beyond the human imagination. What's more, the dilemma would certainly not be so dire if I knew my son wasn't actually going to be dead when all was said and done.

Well I disagree with you, but the principal reason it’s beyond human imagination is you’re not God, don’t know what it’s like to be God, don’t know what Heaven is like and therefore don’t know what God gave up to be tortured and killed by people who hate Him in order to save people who hate Him.

In all the examples we’ve discussed, it’s one human dying for another human.

Even saying would you be tortured and killed - or could you imagine your son being tortured and killed - to save a colony of ants isn’t an adequate analogy (or even close.)

@pb1022 said
Well I disagree with you, but the principal reason it’s beyond human imagination is you’re not God, don’t know what it’s like to be God, don’t know what Heaven is like and therefore don’t know what God gave up to be tortured and killed by people who hate Him in order to save people who hate Him.

In all the examples we’ve discussed, it’s one human dying for another human.
...[text shortened]... son being tortured and killed - to save a colony of ants isn’t an adequate analogy (or even close.)

I don't think there's anything about the narrative you are giving, and the experience the characters in it undergo, that is beyond the human imagination.

@fmf said
I don't think there's anything about the narrative you are giving, and the experience the characters in it undergo, that is beyond the human imagination.

Then obviously you think you know what it’s like to be God and what Heaven is like.

I don’t think you do, but you’re obviously free to think you do.

@pb1022 said
Then obviously you think you know what it’s like to be God and what Heaven is like.

The story you tell does not involve anything that is not "humanly imaginable".

@fmf said
The story you tell does not involve anything that is not "humanly imaginable".

You can imagine what it’s like to be God and you can imagine what Heaven is like?

@pb1022 said
You can imagine what it’s like to be God and you can imagine what Heaven is like?

Nothing you have said is beyond my imagination. So there you go. If it's important for you you to state that it is beyond your imagination, then that is fine.

@fmf said
Nothing you have said is beyond my imagination. So there you go. If it's important for you you to state that it is beyond your imagination, then that is fine.

You just can’t admit when you’re wrong.

You can’t imagine what it’s like to be God and you can’t imagine what Heaven is like.

But because you’re a prideful, stubborn billy goat, you refuse to admit that and, as a natural consequence, that your initial position was wrong.

@pb1022 said
You just can’t admit when you’re wrong.

I am not "wrong" about what I say I can imagine.