At what point in time does salvation begin?

Originally posted by checkbaiter
All of these verses were written to people who did not truly obey God [b]before the day of Pentecost, before people could be born again. The new birth was not yet available.
There was not yet a guarantee of salvation like it says in Ephesians.
The day of Pentecost in Acts1 when the promise of the Father came, changed everyt ...[text shortened]... ubmit to Jesus Christ. Let Him be your payment for sin. But you must come in humility and faith.

Can you quote the verse where Ephesians speaks that eternal life is guaranteed? I know that the Comforter only came to those who were devout and obedient to Christ. The Holy Spirit was not given willy-nilly to any Tom Dick and Harry. Chosen disciples received it. Act 5:32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him. These were those whose eternal life and place in Gods Kingdom were assured. Much like when the 70 returned Christ said their names were written in the book of life. Some have a guarantee of eternal life. Not everyone that says Lord Lord will enter into the Kingdom of God.

The whole idea that there is some separate doctrine or separate dispensation between Jesus and the Apostles is just your fantasy that you wish were true, for whatever reason. It is nonsense and it has been demonstrated to be false. Jesus Christ and the Apostles preach exactly the same doctrine. Jesus very last words was to go and tell people to OBSERVE HIS COMMANDMENTS. Do you think Christ was mistaken?

The Day of Pentecost represents nothing new. It is just the day that Jesus sent the Comforter/Holy Spirit to guide the disciples and other devout followers since He was not going to be there.

Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost. Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God? When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life. (Acts 11:16-18 KJV)

This passage says that The Holy Spirit received now, is the same that those who believed on Christ received under John the Baptist.

Note also the Gentiles were given eternal life but REPENTANCE WAS NECESSARY. I wonder if you know what repentance entails ... certainly not the mouth worship which you say Romans 10:9 preaches.

Originally posted by Rajk999
Ok I will try to help you along. First, which of these do you find difficult to understand:? Pick one and I will explain it.

Matt 19:17 .. IF thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
John 8:31 IF ye continue in my word, THEN are ye my disciples indeed;
John 8:51 .. IF a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.
John 14:15-16 IF ye lo ...[text shortened]... ter into the kingdom of heaven; BUT he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

I suggest you connect your reasoning for using them with the person you were directing them too in the first place.

Originally posted by KellyJay
I suggest you connect your reasoning for using them with the person you were directing them too in the first place.

Was that person you?

Originally posted by Rajk999
Can you quote the verse where Ephesians speaks that eternal life is guaranteed? I know that the Comforter only came to those who were [b]devout and obedient to Christ. The Holy Spirit was not given willy-nilly to any Tom Dick and Harry. Chosen disciples received it. [i]Act 5:32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, ...[text shortened]... what repentance entails ... certainly not the mouth worship which you say Romans 10:9 preaches.[/b]

(NIV) And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory

Originally posted by checkbaiter
(NIV) And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory

Paul addresses these people : Eph 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:

... the saints and the faithful in Christ, who have a guaranteed place in the Kingdom of God.

How that translates into your doctrine that everyone that professes with his mouth etc per Romans 10:9 will get the same treatment, I cannot understand. The same letter to the Ephesians contains dire warnings, as does every single letter to the churches, plus similar warnings from all the other Apostles, about the consequences of unforgivable and unrepentant and willful sin. Anyone that does these things will not get eternal life, whether or not they are Christian.

There are many kinds of Christians and not all will get eternal life. Some who pleases God will be sealed and some will not. The parable of the sower and the seed given by Christ is a good illustration of some who will not make it and why.

Originally posted by Rajk999
Paul addresses these people : Eph 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:

[b]... the saints and the faithful in Christ, who have a guaranteed place in the Kingdom of God.

How that translates into your doctrine that everyone that professes with his ...[text shortened]... sower and the seed given by Christ is a good illustration of some who will not make it and why.[/b]

You will never understand until you understand Dispensation. Your cup is full and no more knowledge can be poured in.

Originally posted by checkbaiter
You will never understand until you understand Dispensation. Your cup is full and no more knowledge can be poured in.

Dispensation is a doctrine of men who built their houses on the sand.
God protects his own from the evil infiltration of false doctrines.
The elect of God follows Jesus, and do not seek excuses why the commandments of His Son are not applicable.

Originally posted by Rajk999
Dispensation is a doctrine of men who built their houses on the sand.
God protects his own from the evil infiltration of false doctrines.
The elect of God follows Jesus, and do not seek excuses why the commandments of His Son are not applicable.

It's not my problem that you know nothing of "oikonomia". You are not interested, you do not study it nor inquire, and you disregard truths. Like I said your cup is full.

Originally posted by Rajk999
Was that person you?

No, but it took me a second to see it was checkbaiter.

Originally posted by checkbaiter
It's not my problem that you know nothing of "oikonomia". You are not interested, you do not study it nor inquire, and you disregard truths. Like I said your cup is full.

The topic was already discussed and you were not able to present your beliefs regarding this in a convincing manner. The whole thing sounds shady and unbiblical. Your problem is that you post lots of stuff which makes no biblical sense.

A good example is what is going on in the thread about Divine Seed. You say that seed and Spirit is used interchangeably. I ask for proof of that and you decline to respond. You post a passage from Peter which presumably you are proving that all Christians are eternally saved by God placing in them some kind of seed. But when I point out that Peter specifically addressed the Elect of God in that chapter, and not all Christians, you again do not respond.

You constantly fail to see the truth as preached by the Apostles and instead ignore significant parts of their writings.

Here is an example. In many of the Apostles writings they address saints, Elect of God, or the whole church. In all of these writings the Apostles would teach of the death and resurrection of Christ and how it saved those believers and made them into sons of God. You stop there and fail to read on to the warnings about the life that must be lived, the necessity of avoiding sin and worldliness .. the consequences of which is eternal death and denied entry into the Kingdom of God.

If it were true that these Christians did not have to worry about that [like you keep claiming], then why would Paul, Peter, James, John, Jude warn all Christians about the likelihood of eternal damnation? Clearly something is missing from your doctrine. ... and that something is Jesus Christ, whose teachings you deny are applicable

Originally posted by checkbaiter
There is still time to repent from your self righteousness and submit to Jesus Christ. Let Him be your payment for sin. But you must come in humility and faith.

"But you must come in humility and faith."

And that is the major sticking point for a lot of people.

Originally posted by Suzianne
[b]"But you must come in humility and faith."

And that is the major sticking point for a lot of people.[/b]

Pride gets to us all, some a lot more than others.

Originally posted by Suzianne
[b]"But you must come in humility and faith."

And that is the major sticking point for a lot of people.[/b]

I was also amazed that pride is the source of all contention.

Originally posted by KellyJay
Pride gets to us all, some a lot more than others.

It is near the top or maybe at the top of most destructive of sins.

Originally posted by checkbaiter
It is near the top or maybe at the top of most destructive of sins.

I agree where we are the most proud I doubt we ever look to God.