Atheism

Originally posted by lausey
So you are suggesting that atheists should believe in christianity because you assume it will make them feel better?

If my arm gets chopped off, no believing that it will grow back will make it grow back, even if I wanted it to.

i would suggest that if it was not able to help you cope with trauma, then it is a façade, a form of Godly devotion, which proves itself false to its own power, on the other hand, if it does, through the application of it tenets make you 'feel better', or be a better person, more able to cope with trauma, then how shall you proceed to dismiss its value?

Originally posted by amannion
The possibilities of eternal life are endless?
Even if there were evidence that any gods actually did exist, and that they had kids who were nailed to bits of wood, and they intervened in our lives whenever they felt like it and not when they didn't ... even if all this were true, the notion of eternal life is abhorent.
We live and die, so that the world rld where we go on and on and on and on ... what a bizarre and horrendous place that would be.

Your answer opens up a discussion about the character of God. My defense of God's character will fall on deaf ears until you first accept His existence.

So let's discuss whether or not He exists, not your negative opinion of life after death.

Originally posted by lausey
So you are suggesting that atheists should believe in christianity because you assume it will make them feel better?

If my arm gets chopped off, no believing that it will grow back will make it grow back, even if I wanted it to.

No, I am not suggesting that.

I am suggesting that Christians have more to live for than atheists. There is more meaning in their lives on this earth because everything they do will affect their life in eternity.

Everything that an atheist does will eventually die. That makes their life empty.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
i think its more horrendous to live seventy or eighty years, with so much potential and never seeing it fulfilled, that is the ultimate tragedy, dont you think?

It's sad for sure. I mean, I don't want to die. But I'm not going to invent some fantasy world where I can live forever. That would be much sadder.

Originally posted by SharpeMother
Your answer opens up a discussion about the character of God. My defense of God's character will fall on deaf ears until you first accept His existence.

So let's discuss whether or not He exists, not your negative opinion of life after death.

I'm not sure what there is to discuss.
I don't believe in any supernatural entities. Obviously, you do - or at least in on, which sort of opens the door for anything.
There's no way to prove or disprove our positions, so we are at an impass.

Certainly I will say the notion of some sort of personal god or interventionist god - that is, one who listens to your prayers and responds in some way - is clearly ridiculous.

But I am happy to continue to discuss these and other points ...

Originally posted by SharpeMother
No, I am not suggesting that.

I am suggesting that Christians have more to live for than atheists. There is more meaning in their lives on this earth because everything they do will affect their life in eternity.

Everything that an atheist does will eventually die. That makes their life empty.

Utter rubbish.
In fac, I can see how it possible to argue the reverse - why care about what happens in this life when you've got eternity to consider.
My life is far from meaningless and far from empty - I have the meaning of my relationships with friends and family; I have the meaning of trying to raise children to be a useful part of the next generation.
Why would me believing in fairies or ghosts or any other supernatural entities make my life any more meaningful?

Do my kids lose meaning in their lives when they realise that there is actually no tooth fairy?
Hardly ...

Originally posted by amannion
Utter rubbish.
In fac, I can see how it possible to argue the reverse - why care about what happens in this life when you've got eternity to consider.
My life is far from meaningless and far from empty - I have the meaning of my relationships with friends and family; I have the meaning of trying to raise children to be a useful part of the next generation ...[text shortened]... ose meaning in their lives when they realise that there is actually no tooth fairy?
Hardly ...

can i ask you amannion, the same question that i asked Laura, if through the application of religious tenets, one is able to cope with and overcome all manner of difficulties, to do so with a mild and gentle disposition, to undergo a complete metamorphosis of character from a selfish and egocentric individual, to a loving, caring, self sacrificing one as a direct consequence of the practical application of religious principles, then how shall you dismiss its value?

Originally posted by amannion
It's sad for sure. I mean, I don't want to die. But I'm not going to invent some fantasy world where I can live forever. That would be much sadder.

The fantasy is the invention that there is no God. That is much sadder. Don't you think?

No God=no life

God=life

Which is sadder?

Someone comes along and says, "hey bud, would you like to know God and live forever?"

Someone comes along and says, " hey bud, when you die you'll cease to exist!"

Which is better?

One of those two is a lie. My bet is it's the negative one.

Originally posted by amannion
Utter rubbish.
In fac, I can see how it possible to argue the reverse - why care about what happens in this life when you've got eternity to consider.
My life is far from meaningless and far from empty - I have the meaning of my relationships with friends and family; I have the meaning of trying to raise children to be a useful part of the next generation ...[text shortened]... ose meaning in their lives when they realise that there is actually no tooth fairy?
Hardly ...

"Why care about what happens in this life when you've got eternity to consider"

Because what we do in this life will determine how we spend eternity.

The tooth fairy doesn't promise eternal life.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
can i ask you amannion, the same question that i asked Laura, if through the application of religious tenets, one is able to cope with and overcome all manner of difficulties, to do so with a mild and gentle disposition, to undergo a complete metamorphosis of character from a selfish and egocentric individual, to a loving, caring, self sacrificing on ...[text shortened]... ence of the practical application of religious principles, then how shall you dismiss its value?

No, I don't dismiss its value for others, but I make it clear that it has no value to me. And I reject the contempt that many religious people show - scratch that - the contempt that many religious people on these threads show, to those of us who do not share their beliefs.
I reject the notion, implicit in your statement, that beacuse I don't hold these comforting beliefs of yours, that I'm therefore selfish and egocentric. Now, before you go and blast me for misreading andmisinterpreting, I know you didn't come right out and say that, but the inference is there,and certainly if not from you then from many who share your beliefs.
I reject this notion.
I respect your beliefs, as I respect others, but to have no belief in supernatural entities does not make me or anyone else some sort of heathanous misanthrope.

Originally posted by josephw
The fantasy is the invention that there is no God. That is much sadder. Don't you think?

No God=no life

God=life

Which is sadder?

Someone comes along and says, "hey bud, would you like to know God and live forever?"

Someone comes along and says, " hey bud, when you die you'll cease to exist!"

Which is better?

One of those two is a lie. My bet is it's the negative one.

Not sure how the notion of no god is an invention, and I can't see how you've proved your case that god is equivalent to life and vice versa.
Which is sadder?
To me that's blindingly obvious: I would much rather accept that I cannot live a delusion, expecting to somehow go on forever, recognise that the one life I have now is all I will get, and make the most of that life, be the best person I can be, and live on, as a good father, and perhaps as an inspiration to others who will come later.
To live forever? No, sorry, I can't look forward to that delusion - it scares the crap out of me.
Sure, I would like to live longer. Who wouldn't?
But wishing isn't going to make it happen. Better that I do something worthwhile now, than hope for something frighteningly endless later.

Originally posted by SharpeMother
"Why care about what happens in this life when you've got eternity to consider"

Because what we do in this life will determine how we spend eternity.

The tooth fairy doesn't promise eternal life.

Why doesn't the tooth fairy promise eternal life?
How do you know this?
Why is it any more rational to believe that some entity called god does offer this, but all other supernatural creations of the human imagination do not?
I'm guessing you reject the existence of fairies, vampires, werewolves, and santa claus. I go one step further and reject that other vestige of human infancy - gods. All of them.

Originally posted by amannion
No, I don't dismiss its value for others, but I make it clear that it has no value to me. And I reject the contempt that many religious people show - scratch that - the contempt that many religious people on these threads show, to those of us who do not share their beliefs.
I reject the notion, implicit in your statement, that beacuse I don't hold these co n supernatural entities does not make me or anyone else some sort of heathanous misanthrope.

nope, it was not implicit in the statement nor inferred, you are drawing a conclusion based on your perception, not the reality, it was not intended as a slight against atheism, nor of you personally, for it was a hypothetical question and the person in question may have been religious, but having a form of Godly devotion, a semblance if you like, i was just interested to see how you evaluate these things, for it seemed that you held them in the same regard as the tooth fairy. I have no interest in blasting you, i was genuinely interested in what you thought, perhaps its the result of a siege mentality, the forum can do that, i know. actually i myself get more hassle from the theologians than i do the atheists 🙂

do you hold that humans have a spirituality, for this is not universally accepted by the atheists i have spoken to, some accept it, other reject it.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
nope, it was not implicit in the statement nor inferred, you are drawing a conclusion based on your perception, not the reality, it was not intended as a slight against atheism, nor of you personally, for it was a hypothetical question and the person in question may have been religious, but having a form of Godly devotion, a semblance if you like, i ...[text shortened]... in what you thought, perhaps its the result of a siege mentality, the forum can do that, i know.

Okay, fair enough, apologies for the misinterpretation.
You're right, I do hold godly belief in the same regard as the tooth fairy. Of course, i realise that religious people wouldn't connect the two - nor I guess would many of them connect god with other mythical fairytale creatures and the like. (Although I'm guessing there's a few out there who are more than happy to contemplate angels and ghosts and the like.)
My perspective is that belief in one form of supernatural entity opens the door to belief in any supernatural entity.
Can the others be ignored simply because they don't carry the weight of religious belief and fervour behind them?

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
nope, it was not implicit in the statement nor inferred, you are drawing a conclusion based on your perception, not the reality, it was not intended as a slight against atheism, nor of you personally, for it was a hypothetical question and the person in question may have been religious, but having a form of Godly devotion, a semblance if you like, i ...[text shortened]... s is not universally accepted by the atheists i have spoken to, some accept it, other reject it.

Sorry, didn't see the spirituality question until after I'd already posted.
I think the problem with the notion of spirituality is in the definition. Do I believe in spirits? No.
Do I believe that we can have a sense of greater connection to the world at times, a sense of the magic of the universe perhaps, and an almost simultaneous sense of our smallness within this universe but our grandness as well? Absolutely. This is what I think of as spirituality - some people use the term 'numinous', but I like spirituality.
I'm a secondary teacher of Outdoor and Environmental Education here in Australia. As such, I spend a lot of time out in the bush and the beauty of the wilderness, of remote places, of the sky at night, all do it for me in a spiritual sense.
I also practice meditation as a calming strategy, and at times the contemplation of ones mind and thoughts can be spiritual in a similar sense.