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03 Feb 14
Originally posted by Grampy BobbyAnd getting to know people who exemplify the varieties would help.
Originally posted by JS357
[b]It is as though the depiction of the atheist as rejecting something offered, is an essential part of some theists' worldview. It is so essential that it has to be in the definition.
A theist trying to understand the world view of an atheist requires a starting point... a few definitional blocks to build upon.[/b]
03 Feb 14
Originally posted by JS357Of course. And I've taken initiatives to invite and play chess games here with quite a number of posters to this forum whose nicknames you would recognize immediately. The In-Game Messaging Feature provides the equivalent of an informal private conversation... and a learning experience for me. Would you be interested in an unrated chess game now or at a later time?
And getting to know people who exemplify the varieties would help.
03 Feb 14
Originally posted by Grampy BobbyThere was some in the sense that I felt free to do things that were forbidden before. But not really in the sense that I defied any human authorities.
Yes, I too appreciate your honesty and candor. Thank you. One question: before or since this decision was rebellion present?
03 Feb 14
Originally posted by SwissGambitSo this statement wouldn't apply to you: "What they all have in common,
There was some in the sense that I felt free to do things that were forbidden before. But not really in the sense that I defied any human authorities.
of course, is the rejection of deity and rebellion against authority." (OP)
Originally posted by Grampy Bobby"What they all have in common, of course, is the rejection of deity and rebellion against authority." [1]
Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
[b]"Atheist Talking Points: What is Atheism?"
Types of Atheism:
"You might think that Atheism is a simple concept – no god – but that would be far too simplistic. Atheism comes in an entire spectrum of beliefs, varying from Rationalism to Anti-Rationalism; from empiricism to Postmodernism; from Enlig ...[text shortened]... t authority. [1][/b] (OP)
SG, have you rejected deity in the past or do you reject deity now?[/b]
[1] Biet-Hallahmi, Benjamin; Atheists: A Psychological Profile; The Cambridge Companion to ATHEISM, Cambridge University Press, 2007 (OP)
__________________________________________
Atheist Talking Points - Atheism Analyzed
www.atheism-analyzed.net/Atheist%20Talking%20Points%20Rebellion.h...‎
Sometimes called “willful rebellion”, such rebellion is definitely full of will. ... [10] Biet-Hallahmi, author of “Atheism, A Psychological Profile”, in “The Cambridge ...
http://www.atheism-analyzed.net/Atheist%20Talking%20Points%20Rebellion.htm
"Atheist Talking Points: Rebellion and Elitism:
Rebellion is a normal, natural human function. We rebel against forces beyond our control. We rebel against things that we don’t like, but which we can’t avoid. We rebel to bolster our autonomy. Sometimes called “willful rebellion”, such rebellion is definitely full of will. In fact, it is an act of self-will, directed toward outside control by those who are considered to be in control or even potentially in control of aspects of the rebel’s life.
For teenagers, rebellion becomes an essence of life. A teen is subjected to his impending maturity and self-direction, yet is still not in control of large parts of his life. Ingenuous in his belief that he can and must be in total control, and with the impatience of his youth, the teen is almost obligated to rebel against parental and other authority. But this early rebellion can be and frequently is self-destructive.
But there also exists other rebellion that sprouts from earlier life hurts. This type of rebellion can last a lifetime and inflict continuing pain and unhappiness. Psychologist Paul Vitz has documented the tortured childhoods of 25 renowned Atheists, finding missing or defective fathers in every case but one.[1]
Components of Rebellion
Rebellion can be dissected into individual components, which tend to form into stages. Probably not all rebellion follows this exact course, but the following steps can be seen plainly in many rebellious paths:
1. Hurt. Hurt can happen to a person in many ways. It is especially devastating in the juvenile years from 3 to 5 years of age. A damaged adolescence can cause hurt for a lifetime. A missing parent, especially a boy with a missing masculine role model, is viewed as rejection and is especially destructive to the development into the subsequent man.[2] His development of the “superego”, or moral system derived from the father, and his sexual identity are formed during this age.[3] And from age 2 to 4, separation anxiety can be developed in the absence of a parent, including the father.[4]
2. Resentment. Denial of happiness or fulfillment in a world of entitlement can lead to frustration and resentment. If there is no visible resolution, the resentment might be prolonged and bloom into full blown anger.
3. Anger. With deep and passionate anger there comes a stripping away of logic, not just in behavior but in thought. Anger replaces rationality with irrationality.
4. Self-deception. When irrationality begins to rule, the individual might become a “Victim”, regardless of the reality of the cause for the original hurt. Victimhood can be a self-sustaining state of mind that reaches over logic to grab onto any real or imagined offense. At this point, coherence is sacrificed to the cause of self-Victimhood.
5. Inversion and rejection (Alienation). What would have been normal logical processing is now inverted, with authority figures seen as oppressors.[5] Illogical or antirational thoughts now seem reasonable, even attractive. Other rebels, especially those of high status become attractive and start to serve as role models.
6. Passion. No longer cowed by his still nagging hurts, the rebel begins to let loose the passion that has long been stifled. In many cases, the rebel becomes an avoidant adult.[6]
7. Pursuit of Excellence. Where the original hurt had left a confused identity and the questioning of personal value, the rebel now can see a positive path to establishing both an identity and value in the pursuit of personal excellence. This can take many forms, but frequently takes the form of pursuing eliteness in a given endeavor, or even many endeavors. It also marks the shift toward political liberalism[7], as the mind is elevated in status over previously held absolute values, and the individual self-enables his status in the universe on the path to eliteness.
8. Pursuit of Eliteness. Applying passion to the pursuit of true eliteness results in competition for status, and when the elite status is attained, the entire rebellion process might seem, for a while, to have been personal fulfillment, and therefore justified. So in the end, the self-deception, inversion of logic, and passion in personal pursuits become ingrained, supported, and necessary. Attainment of intellectual eliteness seems reserved for the Atheists, with 90% of men and 80% of women in elite positions claiming little or no need for religion.[8] And a negative correlation was observed between religious involvement and valuing intellectualism.[9]
Amongst the most elite – the Nobel Laureates and the U. S. Academy of Sciences – the percent of Atheists is the highest, around 93%, “committed to the life of the mind”.[10] Biet-Hallahmi, author of “Atheism, A Psychological Profile”, in “The Cambridge Companion to Atheism”, wrote, “…what these individuals [the most elite] had, in addition to their creativity and high intelligence, was a strong wish to create distance between themselves and their parents.”
Attaining dominance through elitism seems to be the complete end of the need for rationality in a rebellious individual. Since the process produced well materially, it must not be wrong. Most likely the logic will not be questioned. In fact, the elites of Atheism will invariably claim that their thought processes are rational, and others are not. Yet they do not produce rational analyses of their positions and beliefs. In fact, some, such as the literary critics, will claim that there is no logic to be had, that there is no truth, only viewpoints and opinions. (Since they claim that this is the truth, the paradox of this erroneous thought process is obvious).
The western culture of today encourages rebellion against any and all absolute thought, as it dives into pagan, hedonistic relativism. But it also encourages a conformity in the rebellion, where the mass music, for example, is called “alternative”. The rebels of today are uniform and without distinguishing features, including behavior, dress and thoughts: all just alike as if they were manufactured that way. And in many realms there is punishment for nonconformity, with group discrimination against non-rebels, and with “hate crime” thought punishment becoming more common. Asserting the “principles” of yesterday will be cause for imprisonment today, or at least tomorrow afternoon.
The inversion of rational thought into anti-rational thought is reversible, but only in an environment of intellectual honesty, one where all preconceptions are honestly questioned and evaluated using valid logical practices, and without punishment. The restructuring of a personal worldview can be wrenching, if the old worldview is found to be illogical. It can result in strain on friends, family, work relationships and the general relationship to society as a whole. But why would a person with a serious intellect not wish to follow the rational route?[/b]
If reality is rational, then why would a person not give up the rebellion and turn toward logic? All that would be lost is the phony and temporary feeling of self-satisfaction that is given by the narcotic of elitist self-superiority. And what is gained is the authenticity of the self.
[1] John Stuart Mill was taught Atheism in the most intense way by his father, John Mill; John Stuart experienced a mental breakdown in his teen years.
[2] Paul Vitz, “Faith of the Fatherless”,p18, Science Publishing Company, Dallas, 1999.
[3] Ibid, pg 19.
[4] John Bowlby, quoted by Vitz, Ibid, pg20.
[5] “It indicates not only a loss of religious faith, but a rejection of a particular ascriptive community as a basis for self-identification.” Caplovitz and Sherrow, p 31; Quoted in “Cambridge Companion to Atheism”: “Atheists: a Psychological Profile”, Cambridge University Press, p302.
[6] Kirkpatrick, 2005; Quoted in “Cambridge Companion to Atheism”: “Atheists: a Psychological Profile”, Cambridge University Press, p303.
[7] Nelson, 1988; and Hartmann and Peterson, 1968; Quoted in “Cambridge Companion to Atheism”: “Atheists: a Psychological Profile”, Cambridge University Press, p303.
[8] L.M.Terman and Oden, 1959; Quoted in “Cambridge Companion to Atheism”: “Atheists: a Psychological Profile”, Cambridge University Press, p306, 7.
[9] Caplovitz and Sherrow 1977; Quoted in “Cambridge Companion to Atheism”: “Atheists: a Psychological Profile”, Cambridge University Press, p307.
[10] Larson and Witham, 1996; Quoted in “Cambridge Companion to Atheism”: “Atheists: a Psychological Profile”, Cambridge University Press, p312.