Originally posted by FabianFnasI would say that Christians believe it was voluntary (or rather deliberately planned or preordained by God).
Of course it was voluntary. He wanted to follow the prophecy.
But if so, he didn't have any free will of his own. Something to thingk about...
I on the other hand do not think it was voluntary, and that he was not trying to fulfill any prophesies either. The whole prophesy stuff was added on later by his followers.
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Originally posted by twhiteheadWell, I don't belive that stuff either. There is no such thing as prophecies, miracles, coming back from the death, nor that Jesus was a son of a god, born of a virgin mother, that's just religion. The stories of Jesus was written far after the death of him, mostly hearsay and written down with a twist for a special reason. Same kind of stories are currently written about the emperor of North Korea, that he struck 18 hole-in-one ia a row in golf, and similar miracles.
I would say that Christians believe it was voluntary (or rather deliberately planned or preordained by God).
I on the other hand do not think it was voluntary, and that he was not trying to fulfill any prophesies either. The whole prophesy stuff was added on later by his followers.
Jesus was nothing but a rebell in an occupied territory, a pimple in the butt for the powers at that time.
But when debating with christians, we assume some things to make them happy. There would be no debate when every posting begins with "You talk about god? Then prove his existance!" The debate is interesting because we learn about the christians, and how they reason.
My point is that suicide is not a religious sin, because even Jesus commited the act. Let's see how they react to that.
Originally posted by FabianFnasMaybe some will say it is a sin, others will not. Maybe Jesus was a special case where it wouldn't be a sin.
Well, I don't belive that stuff either. There is no such thing as prophecies, miracles, coming back from the death, nor that Jesus was a son of a god, born of a virgin mother, that's just religion. The stories of Jesus was written far after the death of him, mostly hearsay and written down with a twist for a special reason. Same kind of stories are curren ...[text shortened]... not a religious sin, because even Jesus commited the act. Let's see how they react to that.
Although this is really for the Christians to answer. 🙂
Originally posted by FabianFnasSuicide implies that the ones that ordered and went on with his execution had no guilt, right?
Even Jesus committed suicide. He knew what was coming, a death sentence, but he did nothing to avoid it. He let the romans take him, and they hanged him on the cross, and he knew this in advance.
Or perhaps he just had a bad lawyer...
Originally posted by twhiteheadPlease. If you have no hope you have no reason to get out of bed in the morning. In fact, those who feel as though they have no hope often kill themsevles.
You live for hope? What a sad life you lead.
If you live life in futile hope of life after death, then its even sadder.
What will you be hoping for once you get to heaven?
Originally posted by black beetleWith all due deference to your native tongue, you're flat out wrong with respect to the differing meanings and applications for the word translated into the English as 'hope,' whether in the Koine Greek or otherwise.
Elpis in Koine -and generally in Greek- has nothing to do with absolute confidence; it is merely the expectation that the results will be favorable. The scribes of the Bible twisted this meaning and gave the word the gloss of the Christian faith.
Elpis per se is not at all the agent that "gets me out of bed in the morning". I get out of bed in the mo ...[text shortened]... hen I 'm hungry, I think when I want to think and I do not think when I want to think not 😵
Throughout the Bible, it is used interchangeably as trust, expectation, confidence--- as the root of the word suggests, a perspective of belief, favorable or otherwise. The so-called Christian glossing has no traction when viewing the biblical use of the word. There isn't a soft-lens application to be found when the word is used, cover to cover.
Originally posted by FabianFnasWhat a strange concept, living life without hope. I can't say that I know of anyone who stays in such a state for very long.
Atheists has no need any hope for life, because they are alive already. Aren't we all, we who are debating here?
"Are there some non-living here? Raise your hand!"
Ah, you mean an after-life? Oh, I don't think they believe in that, thus don't have any hope for it. They are safe enough in themselves. So they live on.
What I think is strange - if an ...[text shortened]... see a greener grass on the other side of the fence, I just take the jump. Why don't they?
As stated in the OP, I'm speaking of the hope in life, not the hope found in the expectation of an afterlife. While the two are so closely knitted as to be inseparable, distinction is possible, nonetheless.
Originally posted by FreakyKBHCan you be more specific in what you mean by "hope in life" or what that distinction is?
What a strange concept, living life without hope. I can't say that I know of anyone who stays in such a state for very long.
As stated in the OP, I'm speaking of the hope in life, not the hope found in the expectation of an afterlife. While the two are so closely knitted as to be inseparable, distinction is possible, nonetheless.
Originally posted by PalynkaI'll try, but don't get too upset when I mangle it beyond repair.
Can you be more specific in what you mean by "hope in life" or what that distinction is?
People generally do not start a business venture without at least a reasonable expectation of some measure of success. I say "some measure" because it's not always necessarily the same standard. Perhaps one gets into it for the potential financial windfall while another starts up a career just to get someone else off his back.
I can think of no situation that would compel someone into the venture without that reasonable expectation. In fact, such a hopeless venture is called doomed, financial suicide.
A man marries a woman and possibly raises his family on hope: a reasonable expectation for a desired outcome. We all know the nearly infinite stupidities and brilliant insights that inform our decisions in these areas, but the principle remains true: we wouldn't do it if we thought there'd be nothing but heartache and loss as a result.
In youth, we wish to be loved whereas maturity brings us away from that clenched-fist mentality, to a position of gaining the most by giving as much away as possible. One child doesn't take away from a man's love for his wife, it increases the same. The atheist loves his wife, loves his child... but to what end? He dies, they die, game over. He is telling his child--- everyday--- this is it! Enjoy it while you can, because once it's over, it's over. Since he believes there is no soul, there is no perpetuation or extension, thus the need to get as much enjoyment (assuming enjoyment is the desired commodity) now before it's no longer available.
If the atheist feels this way, why would he bring another person into a world where the motto is 'Eat, drink, be merry; for tomorrow, we die,' since the atheist fails to follow that same dictum when he obviously makes sacrifices for his loved ones?
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Originally posted by FreakyKBHI think I see what you mean.
If the atheist feels this way, why would he bring another person into a world where the motto is 'Eat, drink, be merry; for tomorrow, we die,' since the atheist fails to follow that same dictum when he obviously makes sacrifices for his loved ones?
I don't speak for other atheists but definitely the greatest part of the joy in my life comes from having loved ones, friends and other social interactions. So I think it's a fallacy to view hedonism as a purely selfish/individualistic philosophy. I'm happy when I care for others that I love and when I am cared for in return. I am happy when I am in good company and all that "pleasure" (if you will) is something that a literal view of Carpe Diem/tomorrow we die is missing. Such relationships require time. So enjoy life, yes, but do not forget that life is enjoyed at his fullest with others and in the knowledge that you are not harming anyone.
And if you love life, why not bring another person into the world to enjoy it with you?
Originally posted by FreakyKBHFrom the nf. elpis we have the AtticoIonian v. elpomai (expect, wait). Etymology: Fel-p-omai (I wait, I expect), IndoEuropean: wel- (I want, I vote) - Lat.: vel-le (I want) - Fr.: vouloir - It.: volere - Ger.: woollen - Eng.: will (n.) and thus willing (eager), etc etc.
With all due deference to your native tongue, you're flat out wrong with respect to the differing meanings and applications for the word translated into the English as 'hope,' whether in the Koine Greek or otherwise.
Throughout the Bible, it is used interchangeably as trust, expectation, confidence--- as the root of the word suggests, a perspective of b ...[text shortened]... ord. There isn't a soft-lens application to be found when the word is used, cover to cover.
The exact meaning of the word elpis (in Koine etc) is:
1. the feeling that there will be positive and favourable outcome, the expectation of pleasant outcome
2. (as a metaphor): whatever inspires faith/ whatever creates the expectation of pleasant outcome/ whatever creates the expectation of the realization of specific aims of ours
So I argue that throughout the Bible the word “elpis” was used mainly as a metaphor, in accordance to the religious purposes of the scribes of the Bible -and this means exactly that the word was glossed with the (Christian) essence (trust, expectation, confidence etc). Through time the metaphor used by the scribes of the Bible became as acceptable as the main meaning of the word.
Of course we agree regarding the rich palette of the nf. hope
😵
Originally posted by FreakyKBHAs I said before, if all you hope for, and all the value you see in life is pined on your belief in an afterlife, then you must lead a really sad life. But we both know that is not true.
In youth, we wish to be loved whereas maturity brings us away from that clenched-fist mentality, to a position of gaining the most by giving as much away as possible. One child doesn't take away from a man's love for his wife, it increases the same. The atheist loves his wife, loves his child... but to what end? He dies, they die, game over. He is tell ...[text shortened]... njoyment (assuming enjoyment is the desired commodity) now before it's no longer available.
We both know that both of us get much joy out of life as it is and that a belief in an afterlife and any attendant hope is not necessary for that joy.
Now try to answer your own question from the theists point of view. To what end? How does your immortal soul change anything with regards to how you love your wife and child? Why does the fact that your disembodied soul will spend eternity in bliss somehow make your marriage more meaningful or worthwhile? You die, they die, game only just begun?
Originally posted by FreakyKBHYes, so think I. I hope there will be a day tomorrow to. I hope that I have food on the plate, a day with no war, a day to remember as a happy day.
What a strange concept, living life without hope.
But never I have hoped that "Tomorrow I will meet my creator!"
