Atheist: Whence Cometh Hope?

Originally posted by FreakyKBH
If I thought for a second that the time I spend carting this stinking rotting flesh around this dying misery-laden planet were 'all there is,' I'd check out before the second clicked past. There simply isn't enough joy to make up for all the rest of the crap life doles out. All of the sensory raptures one can experience simply fall short of removing even the smallest of injuries, if there is no ultimate, transcendent relief.

I am afraid I don't believe you. But even if you are telling the truth, I can only respond with the fact that I do not lead such a sad life and find that the joys and other benefits greatly outweigh the sadness and other downs of life and thus I soldier on.

Originally posted by FreakyKBH

Thanks, GB. I was beginning to feel a slight let down in the glee department---

some folks herein give me the feeling they're not smellin' what the Freak's got cookin'.

Hmm... within the realm of possibity that some folks haven't discovered

ye olde warm kitchen yet or that some noses are somehow out of joint?

Originally posted by twhitehead
I am afraid I don't believe you. But even if you are telling the truth, I can only respond with the fact that I do not lead such a sad life and find that the joys and other benefits greatly outweigh the sadness and other downs of life and thus I soldier on.

It's my turn to disbelieve you, I'm afraid. As a rule, I'm not an overly morose person; my life is full of many of the traditional sources of joy: beautiful wife, outstanding kids, meaningful relationships with several solid friends, rewarding career and I also enjoy several avenues of appreciation for the finer things in life (food, music, art, etc.). Those who interact with me would tell you I'm downright optimistic.

That being said, despite an established ability to enjoy those items listed, among them, there's not one from which I derive irreplaceable joy. I would sorely miss any of them in their absence, yet I cannot attribute my joy as relying on any one of them--- or even all of them. The implication that you derive more joy from those aspects in your life isn't totally without merit: if this is your hope, you're kind of out of any other option for source material, so it stands to reason that your experiences would be exaggerated in these regards.

However, that is what I submit is occurring here. You cannot hope to suggest that you are able to enjoy your life to such a point that the joy outweighs the heartache. Such a stance is detached from reality and at odds with everything that happens in the world, including your own. How do you reconcile your peace while others are at war? How can you enjoy the warmth of your hearth and home while others are destitute? Your vigor while others are moribund?

Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
Hmm... within the realm of possibity that some folks haven't discovered

ye olde warm kitchen yet or that some noses are somehow out of joint?

Or, have simply lost their sense of smell altogether!

Originally posted by FreakyKBH
Or, have simply lost their sense of smell altogether!

"As you walk down the fairway of life you must smell the roses, for you only get to play one round." ~Ben Hogan

Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
"As you walk down the fairway of life you must smell the roses, for you only get to play one round." ~Ben Hogan

FORE!

Originally posted by FreakyKBH
You cannot hope to suggest that you are able to enjoy your life to such a point that the joy outweighs the heartache. ... How can you enjoy the warmth of your hearth and home while others are destitute?

Its good to hear that your faith has inspired you to work in the field of poverty reduction. That is what you are claiming here, right?

If you are and you do, then you are working alongside loads of people - as you well know - whose inspiration to tackle the heartache of destitute (and other sad stuff that has caused you your 'meaning of life' crisis) has absolutely nothing to do with speculation about the afterlife.

The world is teeming with theists who presumably feel, like you, that they have a monopoly on meaningful hope and meaningful sadness, allowing them (at least in their own terms) to cope with the heartache, and yet the heartache continues nevertheless. I don't see how the competing coping mechanisms of theists and atheists are particularly relevant to the plight of the poor.

How are the destitute in this world affected in concrete terms by your speculation about your own death?

Originally posted by twhitehead
Then either scripture or your interpretation of it is wrong.
My hope is realized daily. Once realized, it cannot 'die'. If I hope for bacon and eggs for breakfast, and I get bacon and eggs, then it is wrong to claim that my hope for bacon and eggs died 30 years later when I died.

[b]The hope I have goes beyond this life, if it real and true we will bo aven't given any reason why your hope is a better reason for continuing to live than mine.

Then either scripture or your interpretation of it is wrong.
My hope is realized daily. Once realized, it cannot 'die'. If I hope for bacon and eggs for breakfast, and I get bacon and eggs, then it is wrong to claim that my hope for bacon and eggs died 30 years later when I died.

[/b]
I do not hope for something I have, once I have it, I have it.
Kelly

Originally posted by twhitehead
Then either scripture or your interpretation of it is wrong.
My hope is realized daily. Once realized, it cannot 'die'. If I hope for bacon and eggs for breakfast, and I get bacon and eggs, then it is wrong to claim that my hope for bacon and eggs died 30 years later when I died.

[b]The hope I have goes beyond this life, if it real and true we will bo aven't given any reason why your hope is a better reason for continuing to live than mine.

"But how does your hope, for something that you believe will happen after your death somehow supersede all
other hopes for things that will happen before death? Why is a hope for a far future event more important? "

[/b]As I said, all things are measured by it; God has become my plumb line for truth
and righteousness. My wants and desires have to take a back seat to that, since
myselfish ways are very strong, my self-righteousness would justify myself over
others I acknowledge God over those. Since I desire Jesus' righteousness over my
own I try to live my life knowing He died for those around me, and He did that
knowing full well what we are all like. They don't have to be good enough for me
to care about them, it also keeps me from getting bummed out over my own
short comings, because I know am forgiven. I'm not overly concern about death,
because He has overcome it, when nasty things happen to us here, it isn't the
end of world, like it could be for you whose only hope rests in that which you have
in this world for as long as you have it.
Kelly

Originally posted by twhitehead
Then either scripture or your interpretation of it is wrong.
My hope is realized daily. Once realized, it cannot 'die'. If I hope for bacon and eggs for breakfast, and I get bacon and eggs, then it is wrong to claim that my hope for bacon and eggs died 30 years later when I died.

[b]The hope I have goes beyond this life, if it real and true we will bo ...[text shortened]... aven't given any reason why your hope is a better reason for continuing to live than mine.

"Now you seem to be implying that your hope is realized before death. Seems a bit inconsistent to me.

But you still haven't presented any argument whatsoever for why your hope is any more important than mine. And you certainly haven't given any reason why your hope is a better reason for continuing to live than mine."[/b]

I acknowledge God in my life now yes! I do have a relationship that I cannot prove
it is a matter of faith, but does touch the real world. It is for me seeing in part, or
in a glass darkly. I still go through everything everyone else does, but God is with
me, and my hope does not rely on the things of this world I live it. I believe I have
given you reason to see how my hope is better than someone who does not know
God, since my hopes and desires are not all centered in this world where they can
be lost, stolen, or killed they cannot be taken from me, for those things I do hope
for here, they can be stolen, lost, rust away and so on.
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
[b]"Now you seem to be implying that your hope is realized before death. Seems a bit inconsistent to me.

But you still haven't presented any argument whatsoever for why your hope is any more important than mine. And you certainly haven't given any reason why your hope is a better reason for continuing to live than mine."[/b]

I acknowledge God in ...[text shortened]... for those things I do hope
for here, they can be stolen, lost, rust away and so on.
Kelly[/b]

Still illustrative, Kelly, that the Lord Jesus Christ himself (during his brief decent into flesh and ministry during the first advent)

opted not to argue with the religious crowd, which by reason of its own implaccable will sat in darkness without ears to hear.

Originally posted by FreakyKBH
It's my turn to disbelieve you, I'm afraid.

The fact that I have not yet committed suicide surely contradicts much of what you posted. I have not claimed to experience more joy than you, all I have claimed is that I experience sufficient joy to wish to continue living. You claimed that in your case you would not wish to continue living if worldly joys were all you had, yet have hardly given good reasons for me to believe you.

Originally posted by KellyJay
God, since my hopes and desires are not all centered in this world where they can
be lost, stolen, or killed they cannot be taken from me, for those things I do hope
for here, they can be stolen, lost, rust away and so on.
Kelly

I still maintain that you are not really making any sense. If a hope is realized in the here and now, it cannot be stolen at a future date. If your hope is such that it is never realized, it is hardly a worthy hope. You have failed to explain away that contradiction in your claims.

Originally posted by John W Booth
Its good to hear that your faith has inspired you to work in the field of poverty reduction. That is what you are claiming here, right?

If you are and you do, then you are working alongside loads of people - as you well know - whose inspiration to tackle the heartache of destitute (and other sad stuff that has caused you your 'meaning of life' crisi ...[text shortened]... destitute in this world affected in concrete terms by your speculation about your own death?

Its good to hear that your faith has inspired you to work in the field of poverty reduction. That is what you are claiming here, right?
Uh, no. Basic human decency 'inspires' us to have concern for others.

I don't see how the competing coping mechanisms of theists and atheists are particularly relevant to the plight of the poor.
For one, the atheist is unable to explain why death exists, whereas the theist cannot only explain it, he is able to speak of its remedy.

Originally posted by FreakyKBH
[b]Its good to hear that your faith has inspired you to work in the field of poverty reduction. That is what you are claiming here, right?
Uh, no. Basic human decency 'inspires' us to have concern for others.

I don't see how the competing coping mechanisms of theists and atheists are particularly relevant to the plight of the poor.
For on ...[text shortened]... y death exists, whereas the theist cannot only explain it, he is able to speak of its remedy.[/b]

For one, the atheist is unable to explain why death exists, whereas the theist cannot only explain it, he is able to speak of its remedy.

You're having a bit of a laugh here ain'tcha, Freaky!