1. Territories Unknown
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    10 Nov '10 05:51
    Can the atheist rightfully claim a hope for life? If so, what is the source of that hope? If there be no hope, well, why live?
  2. Standard memberkaroly aczel
    the Devil himself
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    10 Nov '10 06:20
    Originally posted by FreakyKBH
    Can the atheist rightfully claim a hope for life? If so, what is the source of that hope? If there be no hope, well, why live?
    First of all I myself aint much of a "hope" kinda guy. But if I had to guess I would say that the same things give athiests hope as theists. The smile of children, the warmth of a lover perhaps.
    As pointed out in a beautiful post by Mikelom on bhuddism, if you take god out of the equation, its pretty much the same thing-if not a little more sane for the athiests..
  3. Cape Town
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    10 Nov '10 06:241 edit
    Originally posted by FreakyKBH
    Can the atheist rightfully claim a hope for life? If so, what is the source of that hope? If there be no hope, well, why live?
    You live for hope? What a sad life you lead.

    If you live life in futile hope of life after death, then its even sadder.

    What will you be hoping for once you get to heaven?
  4. Illinois
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    10 Nov '10 06:52
    Originally posted by FreakyKBH
    Can the atheist rightfully claim a hope for life? If so, what is the source of that hope? If there be no hope, well, why live?
    I think there are different kinds of hopes, most of them worldly. And contrary to twhitehead's derisive comment, I'm pretty sure most people, atheist or otherwise, need hope to survive, in one form or another. An extreme example of this, found in Viktor Frankl's book, Man's Search For Meaning, is the prisoner at Auschwitz who has a dream wherein she learns the exact date that the war will end. Color returns to her face and her mood lightens as she looks forward to her freedom. Of course, the date comes and goes and the war does not end. Shortly thereafter she falls into a depression and dies three days later. If people are honest with themselves, they will recognize that it is hope of something that gets them out of bed in the morning. People get by just fine as long as they're creative and persistent enough to find meaning where they can. Whether it's in a kind of atheistic stoicism in the face of a presupposed existential absurdity, or something as primal and simplistic as aesthetic and/or hedonistic appreciation.

    The hope referred to in the NT is the particular hope which only the righteous enjoy, through faith in Christ. It is different than worldly hope because it is an empowerment of the Holy Ghost.
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    10 Nov '10 07:20
    Originally posted by FreakyKBH
    Can the atheist rightfully claim a hope for life? If so, what is the source of that hope? If there be no hope, well, why live?
    Atheists has no need any hope for life, because they are alive already. Aren't we all, we who are debating here?
    "Are there some non-living here? Raise your hand!"

    Ah, you mean an after-life? Oh, I don't think they believe in that, thus don't have any hope for it. They are safe enough in themselves. So they live on.

    What I think is strange - if another life waits on the other side of death, a life in heaven aside the angels and harp music - why don't they kill themselves? If I see a greener grass on the other side of the fence, I just take the jump. Why don't they?
  6. Standard memberDasa
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    10 Nov '10 07:56
    To hope for things, means that one is lacking understanding and truth,..... for truth and understanding bring the person in the spiritual life to a knowingness that needs not hope.

    If one is fixed in truth, what would one hope for? because when all things are understood, then nothing is uncertain.

    True religion offers this to everyone.
  7. Cape Town
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    10 Nov '10 07:59
    Originally posted by epiphinehas
    I think there are different kinds of hopes, most of them worldly. And contrary to twhitehead's derisive comment, I'm pretty sure most people, atheist or otherwise, need hope to survive, in one form or another.
    There is a difference between needing hope to live, and living for hope.
    Freaky implies that he lives for hope, and further that he lives for the specific hope of life after death and that he would have no reason to live without that hope.
    I would find that sad if it were true, but both he and I know that it is not.

    If people are honest with themselves, they will recognize that it is hope of something that gets them out of bed in the morning.
    Sure we can call the expectation that we will live another day "hope", but that is stretching it.

    The hope referred to in the NT is the particular hope which only the righteous enjoy, through faith in Christ. It is different than worldly hope because it is an empowerment of the Holy Ghost.
    It is also not a reason for continuing to live, nor is not having said hope a reason not to live.
  8. Standard memberGrampy Bobby
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    10 Nov '10 09:531 edit
    Originally posted by epiphinehas

    I think there are different kinds of hopes, most of them worldly. And contrary to twhitehead's derisive comment, I'm pretty sure most people, atheist or otherwise, need hope to survive, in one form or another. An extreme example of this, found in Viktor Frankl's book, [i]Man's Search For Meaning, is the prisoner at Auschwitz who has a dream w Christ. It is different than worldly hope because it is an empowerment of the Holy Ghost.[/i][/b]
    The hope referred to in the NT is the particular hope which only the righteous enjoy, through faith in Christ. It is different than worldly hope because it is an empowerment of the Holy Ghost.


    Worded much more emphatically... 'Hope' in the Koine = "elpis" or absolute confidence with the expectation of favorabe results.
  9. Standard memberblack beetle
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    10 Nov '10 10:29
    Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
    [b]The hope referred to in the NT is the particular hope which only the righteous enjoy, through faith in Christ. It is different than worldly hope because it is an empowerment of the Holy Ghost.


    Worded much more emphatically... 'Hope' in the Koine = "elpis" or absolute confidence with the expectation of favorabe results.[/b]
    Elpis in Koine -and generally in Greek- has nothing to do with absolute confidence; it is merely the expectation that the results will be favorable. The scribes of the Bible twisted this meaning and gave the word the gloss of the Christian faith.

    Elpis per se is not at all the agent that "gets me out of bed in the morning". I get out of bed in the morning because I have to do things, and this will for interaction alone gives me all the energy I need; on the other hand, I discard the Christian elpis as wishful thinking.

    By means of cultivating no attachment to any kind of hope, I live my life in full: I drink when I 'm thirsty, I eat when I 'm hungry, I think when I want to think and I do not think when I want to think not 😵
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    10 Nov '10 10:36
    Originally posted by FabianFnas
    Atheists has no need any hope for life, because they are alive already. Aren't we all, we who are debating here?
    "Are there some non-living here? Raise your hand!"

    Ah, you mean an after-life? Oh, I don't think they believe in that, thus don't have any hope for it. They are safe enough in themselves. So they live on.

    What I think is strange - if an ...[text shortened]... see a greener grass on the other side of the fence, I just take the jump. Why don't they?
    I think suicide is a sin, so that wouldn't be an option.

    As for people who believe in karma. Suicide will just result in coming back to where you left off, therefore no progression "spiritually".

    I am playing Devil's Advocate, of course. 🙂
  11. Standard memberblack beetle
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    10 Nov '10 10:41
    Originally posted by lausey
    I think suicide is a sin, so that wouldn't be an option.

    As for people who believe in karma. Suicide will just result in coming back to where you left off, therefore no progression "spiritually".

    I am playing Devil's Advocate, of course. 🙂
    How do you evaluate Keion nomimon?
    😵
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    10 Nov '10 10:55
    Originally posted by lausey
    I think suicide is a sin, so that wouldn't be an option.

    As for people who believe in karma. Suicide will just result in coming back to where you left off, therefore no progression "spiritually".

    I am playing Devil's Advocate, of course. 🙂
    Even Jesus committed suicide. He knew what was coming, a death sentence, but he did nothing to avoid it. He let the romans take him, and they hanged him on the cross, and he knew this in advance.

    Or perhaps he just had a bad lawyer...
  13. Cape Town
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    10 Nov '10 11:10
    Originally posted by lausey
    I think suicide is a sin, so that wouldn't be an option.
    Thinking something is a sin, never really stopped anyone. I guess the possible lack of time afterwards to ask for forgiveness for you sins might be a problem, or if the sin in question is considered a serious sin.
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    10 Nov '10 11:19
    Originally posted by FabianFnas
    Even Jesus committed suicide. He knew what was coming, a death sentence, but he did nothing to avoid it. He let the romans take him, and they hanged him on the cross, and he knew this in advance.

    Or perhaps he just had a bad lawyer...
    From what I understand, he was more like a Gandhi figure. He was so much against fighting back that he didn't resist the Romans. I still don't think his death was voluntary.
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    10 Nov '10 11:28
    Originally posted by lausey
    From what I understand, he was more like a Gandhi figure. He was so much against fighting back that he didn't resist the Romans. I still don't think his death was voluntary.
    Of course it was voluntary. He wanted to follow the prophecy.
    But if so, he didn't have any free will of his own. Something to thingk about...
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