1. Joined
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    23 Nov '05 15:07
    This is a chess site. I fail to see how religious believes and prophecies to come are in any way related to chess.

    However, I'd like to add to this forum from a true atheists point of view. It never ceases to amaze me how people can actually believe in a supernatural God, and a dead guy from 2000 years ago (or 800 something for those who follow the writings of the koran - and as I understand it, jews are still waiting for _their_ man). No religious person would accept the santa clause, faries (not sure how that's spelled, but you know: little be-winged girls with a wand?), trolls or stuff like that. Yet, God is accepted by a whole bunch of grownups (millions!!!) as a definite truth.

    Who can honestly say that there's a difference between God and Santa Clause, except for what they're doing? Who can say that santa clause is any less real than God?

    I don't believe in God, simply because there is not a single event in the universe (that we know of - and what we don't know of we can't debate) that cannot be explained as an act of humans or nature´s chemistry. When we humans hate (which we seem to have a nack for) there's wars, deceit and destruction (we only justify our evil doings by claiming we're doing it for the big guy - or we blame our enemies as being obsessed by the, as I understand it, equally big but bad guy).

    When we love, there's justice, piece and understanding.

    It's really quite simple. All our emotions, all our lack of wisdom and all our inability to enjoy life is grounded in the fact that we're mere humans. Humans are animals. There's no higher being than humans, and there's no lower beings than humans. Every single life IS a miracle, but not because some guy who never shows his face has the ability to create us. The last time I checked we create our own offspring, and evolutions is what gradually changes us into what we are.

    What came first? What was before life? What happens after death?

    Who cares? If you claim that a God created the whole universe and that he, for some reason, sent his Son to lead us, then: Who created God? If you believe that nothing was before God, or that God somehow created himself (or is it herself), than you cannot deny the possibility of life springing into existence from an equally unknown state.

    The way I see it, life on earth is an inevitable outcome from the combination of lots and lots of time, atoms and moleculs created as the universe came to existence. It doesn't mean someone had to create it (and it certainly doesn't mean someone did it in seven days). I really do believe it's all random events.

    If I believe something I have to have arguments. Right? Well, if anyone is interested please do engage me in pleasant conversation about the bigger things in life. I'm sure we can keep it on a civil level even though you may believe that as an atheist I am a follower of Lucifer (unknowingly so perhaps). 🙂
  2. Standard memberKellyJay
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    23 Nov '05 16:35
    Originally posted by stocken
    This is a chess site. I fail to see how religious believes and prophecies to come are in any way related to chess.

    However, I'd like to add to this forum from a true atheists point of view. It never ceases to amaze me how people can actually believe in a supernatural God, and a dead guy from 2000 years ago (or 800 something for those who follow the writi ...[text shortened]... hough you may believe that as an atheist I am a follower of Lucifer (unknowingly so perhaps). 🙂
    We all have our world views, how we think the world is, and why.
    The fact that you care or don't care doesn't change what is important
    to the guy next to you, he has his own veiws and cares. The universe
    is what it is, how we deal with it speaks to what is inside of our hearts
    and souls. From a true Christian's point of view, I like to play
    chess, and discuss life and the universe here. If you do not, I'd
    say don't.
    Kelly
  3. Joined
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    23 Nov '05 16:50
    Actually, you're right... I'm not to say what anyone should think or believe. You're mistaken though, I do like to talk about universe and the mysteries of life and (more importantly) conciousness (apologies for any misspellings).

    Do you believe in God, and why?

    I'm not gonna haunt you for your believes, and I'm not gonna try and force my believes on you. I just want to know what makes people believe in some supernatural things but not others.
  4. Standard memberKellyJay
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    23 Nov '05 17:343 edits
    Originally posted by stocken
    Actually, you're right... I'm not to say what anyone should think or believe. You're mistaken though, I do like to talk about universe and the mysteries of life and (more importantly) conciousness (apologies for any misspellings).

    Do you believe in God, and why?

    I'm not gonna haunt you for your believes, and I'm not gonna try and force my believes ...[text shortened]... n you. I just want to know what makes people believe in some supernatural things but not others.
    Yes, I do believe in God. I got saved when I was 25. I had an
    experience that totally changed my life, how I look at all things.

    I believe truth in the universe is centered on God, I believe
    God is the cause of the universe, the source of life, and I do
    believe as the author of life God's ways are the best way to walk
    in the universe. I also believe our faulty religious notions can
    blind us to God and the universe true nature and form, saying
    that I acknowledge that I have faulty notions too. I also believe
    that we are a ruined race, our views about God and the
    universe are filled with errors mainly because of our
    selfishness and a real devil's hate toward God and man.

    As far as how I became a Christian, I was not raised one, I
    did not know any growing up. The use of Jesus' name was
    more of a cuss word than one that should be used in praise.
    I will tell you that every time I got exposed to the Word of
    God I knew it was true. I felt a calling on my life, and at
    one point when I had so many things going well in my life
    I knew there was more I was missing. I started asking God
    to make Himself real to me, and He did. So when the time
    came I knew God was calling me to Himself, I responded
    yes. That was about 25 years ago, so I have lived 25
    without God in my life, and almost 25 with God in my life.

    I also believe that in order to walk with God one must do it
    willingly, it cannot be forced upon anyone. One must count
    the cost, because it is a total life changing experience. If one
    isn't willing to give up the way they live, they are not willing
    to come to God for the Life God offers in Christ. You cannot
    live with one foot in the Kingdom of God, and one foot in
    the world, those who try normally find they are torn in half
    and hate God and the world. Like a rabbit in the middle of
    the road, it will be hit by car sooner or later, because they
    didn't want to make a commitment.

    Faith and belief, we all exercise both, we just apply them to the
    universe to color it the way we think it is, so we see what we see
    our faith colors it all. Truth if is not grasped with cause us
    grief as walk in error fumbling about, wondering which way
    is right, or worse, wondering if there is a right. We will suffer
    in this life time, it is a given, but there is hope.
    Kelly
  5. Joined
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    23 Nov '05 17:561 edit
    I don't mean to start a quarell (because I promised not to), but I find it peculiar, that most religious people consider themselves saved and the rest of us are damned for all times (unless we repent and accept God).

    If this is so, to which religion should one turn? Clearly, islam and christianity is not the same (although followers of both religions claim that their religion is the right one, so in that sense they are the same). There are many different religions, and who's to say which one is the right one?

    I'm not gonna say that there is no God, because I don't know that. We cannot know what we cannot sense. And we cannot be sure that our interpretations are correct all the time. I may wake up one night, seeing a holy angel and think that there is a God and that this God is speeking to me. Then again, I may just be dreaming or hallucinating.

    How can you be absolutely sure, that Jesus christ exist, and that he cares for you?

    Again, I'm not trying to change your views. I just wish to understand. I don't think this discussion will make me a christian or you an atheist. These questions aren't exactly novelty. They've been asked by hundreds of people a hundred times over. I still haven't heard an answer that can make me understand why anyone would believe in a supernatural, all-encompassing being that's our creator, protector and savior.
  6. Standard memberKellyJay
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    23 Nov '05 18:201 edit
    Originally posted by stocken
    I don't mean to start a quarell (because I promised not to), but I find it peculiar, that most religious people consider themselves saved and the rest of us are damned for all times (unless we repent and accept God).

    If this is so, to which religion should one turn? Clearly, islam and christianity is not the same (although followers of both religions cla ...[text shortened]... uld believe in a supernatural, all-encompassing being that's our creator, protector and savior.
    Do not worry about insulting me by questioning my faith, it should
    be questioned like all things if I think it is to fragile to stand on its
    own it wouldn’t be worth much in my opinion.

    Truth like is like a plumb line we all must align to it or be off. As soon
    as anyone says this is truth, others can disagree. Seeing
    disagreements is a human reality, the disagreements don’t mean
    someone isn’t right, or that any of them are for that matter.

    I will say this as far as getting it ‘right’ when one is looking at God,
    gods, or nothing. One thing that God promises is that if we ask for
    wisdom He will grant it. I believe that God only deals with us when
    we are authentic, when we are playing games with him, he waits for
    us to settle down and get real. Which is why more times than not
    many of us don’t come to God until they get to the bottom, when they
    have run out of excuses and have come to the end of themselves,
    and are willing to be real with God putting all things below God as
    they should be. It is better to seek God before then, but we don’t,
    instead we do what we will, because we want to.
    Kelly
  7. Joined
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    23 Nov '05 18:46
    What if earth is an electron spinning around an atom (sun) in a great molecular structure (galaxy) part of a huge cell (universe)? What if there is no God in the universe, but only as part of your imagination?

    If that's the case, what will happen will happen no matter what we say, do or believe. Right? So, it's really arbitrarily what we choose to believe, because in the end, we don't know what will have mattered.

    I accept all people the way they are. I accept them, because I have no way of knowing if they're supposed to be the way they are or not. So, if someone comes up to me and says: "Repent, or burn forever in the holy fires of hell!" (well, something to the extent of that), I will not give him/her the finger (although I'd really like to). But I find it disturbing how some people think they have the right to tell me what I must believe. You, clearly aren't like that, but a lot of religious people are (I'm using the word religion wrong here, because in a sense I have a religion too, but I can't find a better word).

    I believe that being atheist is being saved. Saved in the sense that I can enjoy life for what it is. I'm not saying you don't know what life is, but you may not be able to enjoy it the way I do, because you must always think what your God may consider right or wrong. In my opinion, nothing that doesn't hurt anyone (including myself) is wrong. Not a lot of things are wrong then. It makes life easier to live, and if there is a God and he's as forgiving as most christians would have me believe I'm sure he'll understand.
  8. Standard memberKellyJay
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    23 Nov '05 19:45
    Originally posted by stocken
    What if earth is an electron spinning around an atom (sun) in a great molecular structure (galaxy) part of a huge cell (universe)? What if there is no God in the universe, but only as part of your imagination?

    If that's the case, what will happen will happen no matter what we say, do or believe. Right? So, it's really arbitrarily what we choose to beli ...[text shortened]... God and he's as forgiving as most christians would have me believe I'm sure he'll understand.
    Fair question, do you think nothing you do matters in the long run?
    Do you really believe that a life that loves and gives is no different
    than a life that kills, steals, murders, and rapes for its own self
    satisfaction in the end after this lifetime? Which is what I'd have to
    accept if I thought there was nothing else other than what we see.
    We (others and myself here) have briefly discussed this with regard
    to there being nothing after this life time. If that is true, nothing is
    here outside of what we see, does that change anything as far as the
    end of days is concern? You die your dead, your gone if you believe,
    or if you do not, it is all the same.

    I can accept people for what they are too, but what are they? They
    have moral notions, they have the ability to do great good and great
    evil if you accept the words good and evil. They know when they
    do something wrong, but more times than not they want to push the
    blame off on something or someone else, example: “I was tired”, “I
    was drinking”, “He deserved it”, “He insulted me”, “My life would
    be better if…” the list goes on and on. We think we are honest, we
    tell what we know is a little lie, justify it, and go on thinking we are
    honest. We can take something from work, tell ourselves it is just a
    little thing, and think we are honest. We can accuse people of doing
    something wrong we ourselves do, but justify it when we are the
    ones doing it, because…

    I’m not sure what your notion of being saved means, if it means you
    are happy where you are, okay you are happy. Being saved from the
    Christian perspective means that we have sinned against God and
    man, and since God takes the position that what we do to the least of
    His children as if we done it directly to Him, we need forgiveness. Being
    saved is getting forgiven and having our relationship restored to God,
    but if you don’t think you need that, why think you need saved?

    I do think God fully understands, I think one of our main troubles
    lay with the fact we do not.
    Kelly
  9. Joined
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    23 Nov '05 20:131 edit
    Originally posted by KellyJay
    Fair question, do you think nothing you do matters in the long run?
    Do you really believe that a life that loves and gives is no different
    than a life that kills, steals, murders, and rapes for its own self
    satisfaction in the end after this lifetime? Which is what I'd have to
    accept if I thought there was nothing else other than what we see.
    We (othe ...[text shortened]... ink God fully understands, I think one of our main troubles
    lay with the fact we do not.
    Kelly
    ...do you think nothing you do matters in the long run?
    Do you really believe that a life that loves and gives is no different
    than a life that kills, steals, murders, and rapes for its own self
    satisfaction in the end after this lifetime?


    It's all about self-satisfaction. There are social laws preventing us from doing harm to others. Those laws are important because we're animals at the core (or so I believe) and just like animals we cannot control our actions all the time. That's not to say I condone with people doing harm to others, or that I need to excuse myself or ask for Gods forgiveness whenever I do something that inadvertantly hurts another being. I only need to apologize to that other being and hope to be forgiven.

    You'd be surprised how restraint I am from harming other living things, simply because I believe that every other living thing is equal to myself and I need to know they forgive me when I do wrong.

    If I could say there's a God, and if I only ask for his/her forgiveness, everything will be fine no matter what I've done, it's not that hard to let bad behaviour out. The people I harm doesn't have to forgive me as long as I'm saved by Jesus and the almighty.

    They know when they do something wrong, but more times than not they want to push the blame off on something or someone else, example: “I was tired”, ... We can accuse people of doing
    something wrong we ourselves do, but justify it when we are the
    ones doing it, because…


    I couldn't agree more. One of the most common justifications in old times has been to spread the word of God and to save the heathens from their own ignorance. It seems that there are still a lot of people (from all kinds of religions - even atheists) trying to use their beliefs as a justification for doing what they know in their heart is wrong.

    I don't think we should be afraid of a God and seek our peace with Him. I think we should be afraid of our own truth and be in peace with ourselves. How can anyone do that, and still opress other living beings?

    I've heard someone say that when I speak of being in peace with myself and seek the truth within me, I'm actually looking for and recognizing God. Is that how you perceive God?
  10. Standard memberKellyJay
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    23 Nov '05 23:151 edit
    Originally posted by stocken
    [b]...do you think nothing you do matters in the long run?
    Do you really believe that a life that loves and gives is no different
    than a life that kills, steals, murders, and rapes for its own self
    satisfaction in the end after this lifetime?


    It's all about self-satisfaction. There are social laws preventing us from doing harm to others. Those law ...[text shortened]... he truth within me, I'm actually looking for and recognizing God. Is that how you perceive God?[/b]
    I believe God is Love, I believe God gives us rain, sunshine, causes
    our plants to grow, blesses us in thousands of ways, more times than
    not without thanks by us. I believe God deals in reality much more
    than we do, we work out our faith in the universe, no matter if what we
    believe is true or not. Even if we know the truth sometimes we will act
    as our desires cry out, not how our knowledge of good and bad say to.

    I think if self-satisfaction is primary goal our lives become shallow and
    we become self absorbed. I believe as we are connected to God we
    can view other people as we should, without our connection to God
    we view them as we think we they deserve to be treated. Since I
    believe we are basically selfish as our sinful nature demands, we
    look at people to see if they deserve our good graces. While we
    are connected to God, and God gives to us all God's good grace
    we should learn that even if our enemies need help, we should
    give it to them as God gives sunshine to the good and bad among
    us. This of course is much easier to write than to live out I'm sorry
    to say, another reason we need God within us, changing us to be
    like Him.
    Kelly
  11. Donationkirksey957
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    24 Nov '05 00:08
    Originally posted by stocken
    This is a chess site. I fail to see how religious believes and prophecies to come are in any way related to chess.

    However, I'd like to add to this forum from a true atheists point of view. It never ceases to amaze me how people can actually believe in a supernatural God, and a dead guy from 2000 years ago (or 800 something for those who follow the writi ...[text shortened]... hough you may believe that as an atheist I am a follower of Lucifer (unknowingly so perhaps). 🙂
    I would be interested in your reaction to the Ivory Tower Blessed Are They thread.
  12. Colorado
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    24 Nov '05 01:54
    Originally posted by stocken
    This is a chess site. I fail to see how religious believes and prophecies to come are in any way related to chess.

    However, I'd like to add to this forum from a true atheists point of view. It never ceases to amaze me how people can actually believe in a supernatural God, and a dead guy from 2000 years ago (or 800 something for those who follow the writi ...[text shortened]... hough you may believe that as an atheist I am a follower of Lucifer (unknowingly so perhaps). 🙂
    Science fails to consider the source of all things. The big bang is lacking in that explosions destroy they don’t create.

    If one throws a pile of bricks on the ground they don’t magically form a house. It takes intelligence to create something meaningful.
  13. Joined
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    24 Nov '05 08:00
    Originally posted by The Chess Express
    ...It takes intelligence to create something meaningful.
    I don't know about that. If you throw a bunch of bricks on the ground they will surely form some kind of pattern. Throw them a few hundred times and you'll see, they always fall in similar ways (mostly because they are shaped similar).

    That doesn't prove anything though. You could easily argue that God has created things so that we'll see patterns even in random events. Since I don't believe in God, I choose to believe that random events has created us, such that we can perceive the order in our own universe. Since we cannot perceive universe in its entirety we are doomed to forever rely on faith. The subject of our faith is different, but that's just part of being human I think.
  14. Colorado
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    24 Nov '05 08:081 edit
    Originally posted by stocken
    I don't know about that. If you throw a bunch of bricks on the ground they will surely form some kind of pattern. Throw them a few hundred times and you'll see, they always fall in similar ways (mostly because they are shaped similar).

    That doesn't prove anything though. You could easily argue that God has created things so that we'll see patterns eve ...[text shortened]... y on faith. The subject of our faith is different, but that's just part of being human I think.
    A pattern of broken bricks is not exactly something meaningful. It takes far more faith to believe that random events brought us into creation.
  15. Standard memberchancremechanic
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    24 Nov '05 08:31
    Originally posted by stocken
    This is a chess site. I fail to see how religious believes and prophecies to come are in any way related to chess.

    However, I'd like to add to this forum from a true atheists point of view. It never ceases to amaze me how people can actually believe in a supernatural God, and a dead guy from 2000 years ago (or 800 something for those who follow the writi ...[text shortened]... hough you may believe that as an atheist I am a follower of Lucifer (unknowingly so perhaps). 🙂
    You are from God-less Sweden. There really is nothing to debate. You were brought up in secular institutions with secular government policies. You cannot see the reality of a living God unless you committed yourself in doing so, but that would be going against years of ingrained atheism packed into your head by a secular government and people. Am I right/wrong?
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