Atheists, speak up!

In reply to chess express [edit], two posts back [edit]... (I'll just click edit and quote next time) 🙂

Intelligence is not the same as consciousness. Computers don’t have emotions, etc.

Conciousness and intelligence is not the same thing. I agree. Conciousness is simply the ability to perceive the elements around us. Our eyes, ears, nose, hands and so on gives us awareness=conciousness. Conciousness is easy to explain. As for emotions, I think they can be described almost exactly like intelligence. It's what happens inside us (chemically) under certain circumstances.

I am fully aware that we live in a cause and effect universe. We bring time and space to everything, and it is difficult to conceive of anything lasting forever or not needing a starting point. It is interesting though that science acknowledges that energy can never be created or destroyed. We are energy. Our consciousness is energy. According to science our consciousness has always been and can never be destroyed; so if our consciousness is eternal, where do you suppose it came from?

I would like you to show me the work of some scientist who says that conciousness and energy are the same. I simply don't believe that conciousness is based on energy.

Energy cannot be destroyed as far as we know today. It merely changes into another form of energy. (Actually, energy is always the same but to us it can appear to change.)

Yes, this all lies within the realm of impersonal chemical reactions. It doesn’t explain how consciousness came about. Molecules do not have free will. A hydrogen atom cannot decide whether it wants to bond to oxygen or not, it just does it. Free will is unique to sentient beings. Random impersonal events cannot explain this phenomena.

What makes you think you have free will in the true sense of the word? Free will is the result of our thoughts and interactions with our surrounding. So, in a sense, free will is also a simple matter of randomness.

Randomness does not have to explain God if God created randomness. If God created the universe...make their arguments.

True. If that's your point of view, you don't have to explain how God was created or where (s)he came from.

The conclusion: we atheists has a burden of proof on our shoulders, while you believers can simply accept that there is a constant in the universe and that constant is God.

I have no objections to that, if that's your way of looking at it. I don't. I believe that everything not only seem to have a cause and effect, but that in fact every phenomenon in universe does. That would have to include a God.

Originally posted by The Chess Express
I don't mean to start a quarell (because I promised not to), but I find it peculiar,...to these matters as well. I don’t like to accept things unless they make sense to me.

I don’t subscribe to this notion. I plan to start a thread in the near future about how we all go back to God.

I'll look forward to reading it. If nothing else it should prove interesting.

Perhaps the different religions are different paths to God.

Perhaps.

Sounds to me like you're more of an agnostic.

Well, I can see how you would think that. But an agnostic is pretty sure that he doesn't know whether or not there is a God (unless I'm mistaking), whereas I'm pretty sure there isn't a God. But to be sure of something, is not the same as knowing. I simply acknowledge the fact, that I could be wrong.

Then again, maybe the true meaning of the word is to acknowledge that we cannot know if there is a God or not, in which case, yes, I am an agnostic. 🙂

I've always found labels to be preventive rather than stimulating.

If a disease plagues people, the scientists search for a cure. They don’t assume that no cure exists simply because they lack evidence. In the same way man’s separation from God can be considered the plague of this world.

But, a disease is referred to as a disease, simply because it's somehow destructive to the people having it. I find nothing destructive in what I believe to be true about universe. I find my beliefs to be merely thought provoking.

You could argue that some people have mental diseases which makes it impossible for themselves to realize they need help. I wouldn't take kindly to such a suggestion, but if you believe that non-believers need help without knowing it, you're free to express it.

I understand and appreciate your position. I’m pretty open minded when it comes to these matters as well. I don’t like to accept things unless they make sense to me.

We are in agreement on this particular point.

Originally posted by stocken
I don’t subscribe to this notion. I plan to start a thread in the near future about how we all go back to God.[/b]

I'll look forward to reading it. If nothing else it should prove interesting.

Perhaps the different religions are different paths to God.

Perhaps.

Sounds to me like you're more of an agnostic.

Well, I can see how you ...[text shortened]... accept things unless they make sense to me.[/b]

We are in agreement on this particular point.[/b]

Then again, maybe the true meaning of the word is to acknowledge that we cannot know if there is a God or not, in which case, yes, I am an agnostic.

Yes, this is the definition of an agnostic. An atheist says with certainty that God does not exist.

I've always found labels to be preventive rather than stimulating.

Point taken. I’ve been stereotyped as a “fundie” (short for fundamentalist) ever since I got here. Go figure…

Originally posted by The Chess Express
If a disease plagues people, the scientists search for a cure. They don’t assume that no cure exists simply because they lack evidence. In the same way man’s separation from God can be considered the plague of this world.

But, a disease is referred to as a disease, simply because it's somehow destructive to the people having it. I find nothing destructive in what I believe to be true about universe. I find my beliefs to be merely thought provoking.

I suppose it's possible to be a pacifist and an agnostic at the same time. The problem is that this isn’t what is going on in the world today. People are not pacifistic by nature.

Even a strong atheist has to agree that love exists. If everybody lived the way that God intended them to this world would be at peace. Jesus tells us to love one another, and this message is repeated in all the great religions. This is what I meant by the analogy.

I believe the reason why most people are not career criminals is not necessarily because of our laws, but because of God’s laws. It’s relatively easy to commit a crime and get away with it, but what happens in the afterlife?

You could argue that some people have mental diseases which makes it impossible for themselves to realize they need help. I wouldn't take kindly to such a suggestion, but if you believe that non-believers need help without knowing it, you're free to express it.

This is pretty obscure. I don’t think that it’s impossible to find God, only that an effort is required. I also don’t think that it is impossible to realize that we need help.

Non-believers need help the same as believers. It’s my belief that true happiness cannot be achieved without God. All things material get old and loose their appeal. I’m not happy with the idea that these few years here on earth are all there is to my existence. I’m not sure how anybody could be.

Originally posted by Soothing
In reply to chess express [edit], two posts back [edit]... (I'll just click edit and quote next time) 🙂

Intelligence is not the same as consciousness. Computers don’t have emotions, etc.

Conciousness and intelligence is not the same thing. I agree. Conciousness is simply the ability to perceive the elements around us. Our eyes, ears, nose, ha ct, but that in fact every phenomenon in universe does. That would have to include a God.[/b]

Conciousness and intelligence is not the same thing. I agree. Consciousness is simply the ability to perceive the elements around us. Our eyes, ears, nose, hands and so on gives us awareness=consciousness.

Not exactly. Consciousness = Awareness of thoughts and feelings: the part of the human mind that is aware of the feelings, thoughts, and surroundings. Our self-awareness, what makes us unique.

As for emotions, I think they can be described almost exactly like intelligence. It's what happens inside us (chemically) under certain circumstances.

Chemicals are interrelated with emotions just as our bodies are interrelated with our consciousness. This doesn’t mean that our bodies are our consciousness.

I would like you to show me the work of some scientist who says that consciousness and energy are the same. I simply don't believe that consciousness is based on energy.

Science has shown that material things change on the molecular level just by looking at them.

There were experiments done with plants where somebody praised one plant and verbally degraded the other. The one that was praised flourished, the one that was offended withered. These types of experiments suggest that consciousness and emotions do in fact equal energy.

Energy cannot be destroyed as far as we know today. It merely changes into another form of energy. (Actually, energy is always the same but to us it can appear to change.)

Yes, I believe the same is true of our consciousness.

What makes you think you have free will in the true sense of the word? Free will is the result of our thoughts and interactions with our surrounding. So, in a sense, free will is also a simple matter of randomness.

Not really. If I walk along and notice a flower I can stop and smell it or not. A hydrogen atom has no choice but to bond with the first suitable atom it comes in contact with.

The conclusion: we atheists has a burden of proof on our shoulders, while you believers can simply accept that there is a constant in the universe and that constant is God.

I have no objections to that, if that's your way of looking at it. I don't. I believe that everything not only seems to have a cause and effect, but that in fact every phenomenon in universe does. That would have to include a God.

Ok, but simply accepting that there is a God will not get anybody anywhere. It’s far more difficult to live the life and make the effort to find the proof for ourselves.

In many ways scientists have the easier task.

Originally posted by The Chess Express
Conciousness and intelligence is not the same thing. I agree. Consciousness is simply the ability to perceive the elements around us...[shortened]...In many ways scientists have the easier task.

{Edit: everything went bold on me}

Consciousness = Awareness of thoughts and feelings: the part of the human mind that is aware of the feelings, thoughts, and surroundings. Our self-awareness, what makes us unique.

To be self-aware is not very different from being aware of your surroundings. Granted, to be self-aware requires to be able to sense yourself, which is exactly what your feelings allows you to. To me, being self-aware is being aware of the environment within me (my body, it's state and my mind, my thoughts).

"I think, therefore I am", but also: even non-thinking material is, so being aware is nothing but recognizing things around and within us.

Chemicals are interrelated with emotions just as our bodies are interrelated with our consciousness. This doesn’t mean that our bodies are our consciousness.

I'm not saying that our bodies are our conciousness. I'm saying our bodies allows us to have conciousness. But this is a matter of pure belief. You believe the soul is energy that outlives our fragile bodies (right?), and I believe that indeed when I die, my existence on this planet (in this universe) is forever over.

There were experiments done with plants where somebody praised one plant and verbally degraded the other...that consciousness and emotions do in fact equal energy.

There has been experiments resulting in nothing as well. Totally separated from each other, and within similar environments, the plants didn't react one way or the other to language or emotional outbursts. They reacted to oxygen, furtal neurishment and light.

Yes, I believe the same is true of our consciousness.

I don't, but you get credit here...

If I walk along and notice a flower I can stop and smell it or not.

But the choice you're making is governed by processes in your brain. In a way, when you make the choice, it's instantly true that you couldn't have made any other choice (simply because you made it).

This is another one of those belief matters. Either we believe in free will or we don't. But tell me, if God gave you free will, (s)he really don't care what you do with that free will, does (s)he? Cause if (s)he does, you really don't have a free will.

In many ways scientists have the easier task

Interesting... I always thought it to be much easier to simply say: There is a God, and he created everything. I never thought of that as particularly complicated. You must be referring to the process of convincing yourself that, indeed, there is a God. I can see how that would take some work. (No offense.)

Originally posted by Soothing
Consciousness = Awareness of thoughts and feelings: the part of the human mind that is aware of the feelings, thoughts, and surroundings. Our self-awareness, what makes us unique.[/b]

To be self-aware is not very different from being aware of your surroundings. Granted, to be self-aware requires to be able to sense yourself, which is exactly what your feeli ...[text shortened]... ng yourself that, indeed, there is a God. I can see how that would take some work. (No offense.)[/b]

To be self-aware is not very different from being aware of your surroundings. Granted, to be self-aware requires to be able to sense yourself, which is exactly what your feelings allows you to. To me, being self-aware is being aware of the environment within me (my body, it's state and my mind, my thoughts).

A computer with the proper sensors is self aware by your definition. This is a point that we disagree on.

"I think, therefore I am", but also: even non-thinking material is, so being aware is nothing but recognizing things around and within us.

Solid objects are nothing but energy and space, so do they really exist or not? Our bodies are similar to rocks in this way. It’s our consciousness that equals our existence. This is what Descartes was referring to.

Random chemical reactions may have produced rocks, but this doesn’t really explain consciousness. You can’t open up a brain and examine a thought. Scientists cannot for example measure the thoughts of somebody contemplating philosophical concepts.

I'm not saying that our bodies are our conciousness. I'm saying our bodies allows us to have conciousness. But this is a matter of pure belief.

I would say that our brains make it possible for our soul/consciousness to exist in our bodies. We are not so far apart on this point.

You believe the soul is energy that outlives our fragile bodies (right?), and I believe that indeed when I die, my existence on this planet (in this universe) is forever over.

Yes, this is true. This is where we differ.

There were experiments done with plants where somebody praised one plant and verbally degraded the other...that consciousness and emotions do in fact equal energy.

This doesn’t explain why things change just by looking at them. In a way it’s really silly to argue that consciousness is not energy. Our bodies are made up of energy in pretty much every way, so even if you’re a physicalist you still realize that thoughts and such are energy. Electrical discharges in the brain are energy.

Our bodies turn to dust because that is their nature. I believe that the nature of our consciousness is eternal as energy is eternal.

The biologist J. B. S. Haldane said “It seems to me immensely unlikely that mind is a mere by-product of matter. For if my mental processes are determined wholly by the motions of atoms in my brain, I have no reason to suppose that my beliefs are true…And hence I have no reason for supposing my brain to be composed of atoms.”

This is basically the same point I made about consciousness lying outside the realm of random chemical reactions. Our thoughts are our own. We can choose to think about certain things. Random chemical reactions in the form of neurons firing do not explain this.

But the choice you're making is governed by processes in your brain.

I would say that our consciousness governs the processes in our brains. If we choose to do math we use our left brains. If we choose to contemplate the nature of the universe, or perhaps the meaning of a creative poem we use our right brains.

In a way, when you make the choice, it's instantly true that you couldn't have made any other choice (simply because you made it).

Once a choice is made it’s made. This doesn’t mean that there is no choice in the matter before the choice is made. This is what free will is. The freedom to choose.

But tell me, if God gave you free will, (s)he really don't care what you do with that free will, does (s)he? Cause if (s)he does, you really don't have a free will.

What? God wants us to do good. He gave us free will because he didn’t want mindless slaves. He wants us to learn from our mistakes and choose him by our own free will.

Interesting... I always thought it to be much easier to simply say: There is a God, and he created everything. I never thought of that as particularly complicated. You must be referring to the process of convincing yourself that, indeed, there is a God. I can see how that would take some work. (No offense.)

What I’m referring to is the process of finding God. It is nothing to simply say there is a God who created everything. This doesn’t lead to any benefit.

Jesus: “Behold, the kingdom of Heaven is in you.”

Finding God within us is the reason why we’re here (in my opinion of coarse 🙂)

Descartes' Error makes some very interesting points about the questions raised in the last posts, written by a neurosurgeon (spelling?):

http://serendip.brynmawr.edu/bb/damasio/Damasioreview.html

Originally posted by stocken
[b]I don’t subscribe to this notion. I plan to start a thread in the near future about how we all go back to God.

I'll look forward to reading it. If nothing else it should prove interesting.

Perhaps the different religions are different paths to God.

Perhaps.

Sounds to me like you're more of an agnostic.

Well, I can see ho ...[text shortened]... accept things unless they make sense to me.[/b]

We are in agreement on this particular point.[/b]

Originally posted by stocken
I don't mean to start a quarell (because I promised not to), but I find it peculiar, that most religious people consider themselves saved and the rest of us are damned for all times (unless we repent and accept God).

BTW, why did you claim that this was my post? You said this.

Originally posted by The Chess Express
A computer with the proper sensors is self aware by your definition. This is a point that we disagree on....Finding God within us is the reason why we’re here (in my opinion of coarse 🙂)

A computer with the proper sensors is self aware by your definition. This is a point that we disagree on.

Yes

Scientists cannot for example measure the thoughts of somebody contemplating philosophical concepts.

Not sure what you're saying. Scientists can measure brain activity while we're contemplating. That to me is an indication (nothing more mind you) that thoughts exist inside the brain. Of course, you may be right as well.

In a way it’s really silly to argue that consciousness is not energy. Our bodies are made up of energy in pretty much every way, so even if you’re a physicalist you still realize that thoughts and such are energy. Electrical discharges in the brain are energy.

In that sense, conciousness is energy. I only have problem understanding how the energy can survive (intact) after the shell holding the energy (the body and brain) is gone. My thinking is, that once the body dies, it must transform into something different. When it does, it cannot (I think) stay intact as far as my soul; emotions and mind is concerned. That too will have to wether away. I have no problem with that. I see myself as very much a part of nature, and dying here and have my atoms and moleculs mix with nature again is fine by me.

The biologist J. B. S. Haldane said “It seems to me immensely unlikely that mind is a mere by-product of matter. For if my mental processes are determined wholly by the motions of atoms in my brain, I have no reason to suppose that my beliefs are true…And hence I have no reason for supposing my brain to be composed of atoms.”

Yes, that is a problem isn't it? 🙂

Once a choice is made it’s made. This doesn’t mean that there is no choice in the matter before the choice is made. This is what free will is. The freedom to choose.

I suppose...

What? God wants us to do good. He gave us free will because he didn’t want mindless slaves. He wants us to learn from our mistakes and choose him by our own free will.

According to the bible, didn't God punish Adam by throwing him out of Eden when he took that bite. And, in fact, that bite gave him knowledge and free will. Oh, I see. The fact that he took a bite indicates he already had free will. So, even though God got upset with Adam for using his free will, God had already given Adam free will to begin with.

Since I'm certainly not good at the bible I could be way off here, so please correct me if you feel the need. I'm serious, not sarcastic. Not now.

What I’m referring to is the process of finding God. It is nothing to simply say there is a God who created everything. This doesn’t lead to any benefit.

Yes, I was referring to that very same thing too.

---

Let me clarify my point of view. I'm not trying to pun down on you or your beliefs. In fact, I've enjoyed this conversation and you do have valid points. I'm just not sure I understand it all. Maybe that's because I'm limited in my understanding. I'm certainly no high-degree scientist or great thinker. 🙂

I believe that humans aren't much more than machines actually (with the clear exception of emotions and the much bigger room for storing information that we humans have, of course). The soul, to me, is part of the body I exist in. The body is me. I am my body. There's lots and lots of love and compassion in here, but also anger and jelousy. Most animals exhibit those trades at one time or another. That only tells me we're created from the same background, wether from the hand of God or through an evolution based on random events.

I've actually tried to get in contact with the God christians speak of. I've meditated. I've prayed and I've tried to find within me, something bigger than me. Either I'm so full of myself I can't see, or there really isn't anything other than me in my body. Feel free to take your pick. I won't be offended.

Originally posted by The Chess Express
BTW, why did you claim that this was my post? You said this.

I'm not sure I understand???

The text is taken from my posting back and forth with KellyJay. I think you got in between with a question of how conciousness can arise from random events, and when I replied to that, my original text came with that message.

Originally posted by stocken
I'm not sure I understand???

The text is taken from my posting back and forth with KellyJay. I think you got in between with a question of how conciousness can arise from random events, and when I replied to that, my original text came with that message.

In your post second down on this page you say that this was posted by me.

No big deal, I was just curious about it.

My text was at the top of your message. Then, when I responded my text was still at the top of my message, but instead it said "originally posted by", you.

I'll think about this in the future. Thank you for pointing it out. 🙂

Originally posted by Soothing
A computer with the proper sensors is self aware by your definition. This is a point that we disagree on.[/b]

Yes

Scientists cannot for example measure the thoughts of somebody contemplating philosophical concepts.

Not sure what you're saying. Scientists can measure brain activity while we're contemplating. That to me is an indication lly isn't anything other than me in my body. Feel free to take your pick. I won't be offended.[/b]

Not sure what you're saying. Scientists can measure brain activity while we're contemplating. That to me is an indication (nothing more mind you) that thoughts exist inside the brain. Of course, you may be right as well.

It means that our brains are functioning. It means that the neurons are firing. It’s impossible to determine what kinds of thoughts a person is thinking specifically. We can’t measure brain activity and say this person is thinking about a beach house in Florida for example.

In that sense, conciousness is energy. I only have problem understanding how the energy can survive (intact) after the shell holding the energy (the body and brain) is gone. My thinking is, that once the body dies, it must transform into something different. When it does, it cannot (I think) stay intact as far as my soul; emotions and mind is concerned. That too will have to wether away. I have no problem with that. I see myself as very much a part of nature, and dying here and have my atoms and moleculs mix with nature again is fine by me.

If you’re at peace with this then so be it. I find this unsettling to say the least.

In my opinion this is where the science breaks down. You can’t mix chemicals is a laboratory and produce love. This is why I don’t believe that science and evolution can explain consciousness.

Our bodies are physical, our souls are spiritual. The energy that makes up our consciousness escapes when our bodies become unsuitable to house it.

In that sense, consciousness is energy. If you believe this, then believe that our conscious energy is not destroyed, it only changes form.

According to the bible, didn't God punish Adam by throwing him out of Eden when he took that bite. And, in fact, that bite gave him knowledge and free will. Oh, I see. The fact that he took a bite indicates he already had free will. So, even though God got upset with Adam for using his free will, God had already given Adam free will to begin with.

Since I'm certainly not good at the bible I could be way off here, so please correct me if you feel the need. I'm serious, not sarcastic. Not now.

Adam and Eve ate from the tree of knowledge of good and evil. I have a feeling that this story is probably very symbolic, and I don’t claim to know the full truth of it either.

My interpretation is that God realized that there has to be evil to contrast good. There has to be dark to contrast light. God allowed Adam and Eve to gain this knowledge so that they could experience what evil is and ultimately choose God by their own free will. We are the descendants of Adam and Eve and so we are in the same position.

Let me clarify my point of view. I'm not trying to pun down on you or your beliefs. In fact, I've enjoyed this conversation and you do have valid points. I'm just not sure I understand it all. Maybe that's because I'm limited in my understanding. I'm certainly no high-degree scientist or great thinker. J

I know this. I certainly don’t understand it all either. I enjoy getting different perspectives on things. In this way perhaps both of us can learn.

I believe that humans aren't much more than machines actually (with the clear exception of emotions and the much bigger room for storing information that we humans have, of course). The soul, to me, is part of the body I exist in. The body is me. I am my body.

I understand that this is the way atheists believe. You mentioned that you’re at peace with this, so I guess this works for you.

There's lots and lots of love and compassion in here, but also anger and jelousy. Most animals exhibit those trades at one time or another. That only tells me we're created from the same background, wether from the hand of God or through an evolution based on random events.

This is what sets us apart from computers in my opinion.

I've actually tried to get in contact with the God Christians speak of. I've meditated. I've prayed and I've tried to find within me, something bigger than me. Either I'm so full of myself I can't see, or there really isn't anything other than me in my body. Feel free to take your pick. I won't be offended.

I John 4:8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.

I John 4:7 Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and everyone that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.

According to Christian beliefs, God is the ultimate source of all that is good and right. God is love. If you know that there is love inside of you, then you know that God is inside of you as well. You just may not realize it.

When you meditated, did you experience anything at all? That is did you feel more peaceful, less restless, more in touch with yourself? If you did then you made progress. Just because God didn’t quickly reveal himself to you doesn’t mean that you made no progress.

Anyway, believe as you will. I don’t pretend that religion makes perfect sense to me either. 🙂

Originally posted by The Chess Express
[b]Not sure what you're saying. Scientists can measure brain activity while we're contemplating. That to me is an indication (nothing more mind you) that thoughts exist inside the brain. Of course, you may be right as well.

It means that our brains are functioning. It means that the neurons are firing. It’s impossible to determine what kin ...[text shortened]...
Anyway, believe as you will. I don’t pretend that religion makes perfect sense to me either. 🙂[/b]

We can’t measure brain activity and say this person is thinking about a beach house in Florida for example.

Quite right... 😏

If you believe this, then believe that our conscious energy is not destroyed, it only changes form.

When it changes form, two things are possible:

1) Through the change the harddisk is erased so to speak, or
2) everything that I was is somehow intact in the new form

I believe 1 is the most probable.

There has to be dark to contrast light

This is true.

In this way perhaps both of us can learn.

I totally agree.

The soul, to me, is part of the body I exist in. The body is me. I am my body.

I understand that this is the way atheists believe. You mentioned that you’re at peace with this, so I guess this works for you.

It does 🙂

This [...love, emotions...] is what sets us apart from computers in my opinion.

At the moment.

I believe in the future we'll build fully sentient machines. But that's science fiction, and a completely different subject. I see what you mean, though.

If you know that there is love inside of you, then you know that God is inside of you as well. You just may not realize it.

Perhaps. But if that part of me is God, then God is part of me in a very tangible way. Not at all some supernatural thingie outside of me. I think the ability to express love, as well as the ability to express any other feelings is part of who we are as part of this world. It may come from a God, I guess, but it's equally possible (to me) that it comes from hundreds of thousands (literally!) of years of evolution.

When you meditated, did you experience anything at all?

I did, and I do. I feel relaxed and much more focused after a good meditation. During meditation (at rare ocassions) I experience a complete void, but a soothing one, a void that is warm and completely detached from the world around me. This happens rarely.
(I suspect my neighbour might be lighting a joint every now and then; smoke through the vent affecting me.)

Anyway, believe as you will. I don’t pretend that religion makes perfect sense to me either. 🙂

Life goes on. Experiences and more wisdom with age (hopefully) should still have a lot to teach me. At least I hope so. It would be terrible if, in thirty years or so, I haven't evolved in any way.

Perhaps the different religions are different paths to God.

Then why would they go to war so often?