Originally posted by stellspalfieI believe I already told you that I do not know what it would take to create someone with free will. If you remove the ability to choose evil than is free will really there? Moving forward eternal beings would reject evil which is what you are asking about.
you are avoiding answering the question.
lets imagine god at the time of creation. god stands outside of time so he can see the beginning, middle and end of every possible thing he could possibly create. when he looks at every single permeation, every possible design for humanity.....we were the best ones, every other possible design was going to hav ...[text shortened]... e went for......are we the best god could do?
simple question, can you answer it? if not why?
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Originally posted by KellyJayI don't believe you are answering the question, you appear to be rewording my question then answering that.
I believe I already told you that I do not know what it would take to create someone with free will. If you remove the ability to choose evil than is free will really there? Moving forward eternal beings would reject evil which is what you are asking about.
can god create version of humanity that has all the attributes he requires (such as freewill) and is better then our version of humanity?
either yes he can, no he can not or you don't know.
Originally posted by stellspalfieI believe He would do it the best way, but I don't know is the honest answer.
I don't believe you are answering the question, you appear to be rewording my question then answering that.
can god create version of humanity that has all the attributes he requires (such as freewill) and is better then our version of humanity?
either yes he can, no he can not or you don't know.
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Originally posted by stellspalfieYes, but, Satan will just find some other dumbass to eat from a tree they were told not to in that version, too.
I don't believe you are answering the question, you appear to be rewording my question then answering that.
can god create version of humanity that has all the attributes he requires (such as freewill) and is better then our version of humanity?
either yes he can, no he can not or you don't know.
Originally posted by sonhouseAnd you have a problem with this?
Set up the universe, meaning you believe the universe started 14 billion years ago and our solar system including Earth is on the order of 4 or 5 billion years old?
So you believe God, as opposed to god, set up the rules of physics and chemistry and such to end up making the matter that allowed life to flourish on Earth?
Originally posted by apathistChristians, Jews and Muslims all worship the same God. The difference in their worship rites comes when interpreting this God through separate filters.
There are three religions that worship the abrahamic god. You said " "God" is the one and only God which could be the Christian God or Muslim, while god could be one of many gods." You left out the jews , which is how you dissed them.
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Originally posted by KellyJayGood answer, you nor I know if it was possible to make a better version of us. Lets consider what it would mean if God was unable to improve on his design....I would say that it indicates Gods powers are limited, he does not have the ability to create Humans with the characteristics he requires that are also universally good, a puzzle that is beyond his abilities. Would you agree?
I believe He would do it the best way, but I don't know is the honest answer.
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Originally posted by SuzianneYou think its beyond Gods ability to create a version of Humanity with the characteristics he requires that wouldn't have 'dumb asses' in it?
Yes, but, Satan will just find some other dumbass to eat from a tree they were told not to in that version, too.
Originally posted by SuzianneOf course not. A belief that doesn't force the world to be 6000 years old but to be as it really is, 4 odd billion years old and a universe 10 billion years older cannot be refuted by science. So if someone believes a god or a God, take your pick, did it or if it was the result of much larger forces than our universe at play, I can't argue against it. It is a much more adult kind of faith, one that I could live with.
And you have a problem with this?
But of course true Abrahamics cannot accept that scenario.
Like I have said before, these religions keep humankind in a roiled up state with one religion at odds with another to the point of millions of deaths.
THAT I cannot accept comes from ANY god.
But of course for you it is not the religion at fault it is people misguided by some anti-deity you want to call Satan.
The whole edifice uses human traits as befits religions invented in whole by men.
A real omniscient god would never need to set up loyalty tests like Ab and his son or the 'apple' in Eden.
HUMANS need loyalty tests. HUMANS are the ones with trust issues.
A real omniscient being would see through all such tests and see the result and therefore never need such tests in the first place.
HUMANS need such tests. It stands to reason these kind of concepts get encoded in religion since they cannot produce a real god they have to make people THINK there is one and when they convince people of that they have it made, now a new order is set up, starting with the first Abrahamic religion, Judaism then Christianity then Islam. All supposed to be worshiping the same god.
Funny how people supposedly worshiping the same god kill each other by the millions.
Yes, a REAL spiritual way to live.
It's just so abysmally sad half the human race believes the scam of religion.
Originally posted by stellspalfieWell, I think you are not actually talking about a better version of us as much as you are
Good answer, you nor I know if it was possible to make a better version of us. Lets consider what it would mean if God was unable to improve on his design....I would say that it indicates Gods powers are limited, he does not have the ability to create Humans with the characteristics he requires that are also universally good, a puzzle that is beyond his abilities. Would you agree?
this life time. As I pointed out to you earlier which you seemed to ignore it is written that
we will take our corrupt nature and put on an incorruptible one, our life that is finite to
one that is eternal after judgment day. So the (better version) is not the real question I
think you are going on about is our falling into sin. That doesn't come into the "better"
version of us since this life is temporal and the better version is a reality yet realized.
So if God chooses to prove what He has created as real as the ability to make a choice
good or bad what would you choose He do disallow bad choices? If God also proves at
the same time that love is better than evil while He is created this universe, doesn't the
whole of creation work towards this end from the universe that supports our lives to the
ability to do as we desire while we are here?
Originally posted by sonhouse"A real omniscient god would never need to set up loyalty tests like Ab and his son or the 'apple' in Eden."
Of course not. A belief that doesn't force the world to be 6000 years old but to be as it really is, 4 odd billion years old and a universe 10 billion years older cannot be refuted by science. So if someone believes a god or a God, take your pick, did it or if it was the result of much larger forces than our universe at play, I can't argue against it. It is ...[text shortened]... l way to live.
It's just so abysmally sad half the human race believes the scam of religion.
I find you amusing how you can in one breath talk about how a god would do or not do
and in the same sentence say one isn't real. So how do you come with what god could
or could not do when you say these things, it isn't like you really know what god could
or couldn't do. You create a god between your own ears and put your limitations upon
it then declare to us those limitations as if you really knew the limitations.
Originally posted by stellspalfieHow would we know what is or is not beyond God's abilities since we do see nor grasp
Good answer, you nor I know if it was possible to make a better version of us. Lets consider what it would mean if God was unable to improve on his design....I would say that it indicates Gods powers are limited, he does not have the ability to create Humans with the characteristics he requires that are also universally good, a puzzle that is beyond his abilities. Would you agree?
Him with our limitations? Timeless, and stuck in now, all knowing, and wondering brains,
never gets tired and we sleep, eternal and a limited life span?
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Originally posted by KellyJayAgain with the 'now you think you know the mind of god' card. For you it's perfectly acceptable for there to be literally millions of deaths, children tortured and killed because it will all be better by and by.
"A real omniscient god would never need to set up loyalty tests like Ab and his son or the 'apple' in Eden."
I find you amusing how you can in one breath talk about how a god would do or not do
and in the same sentence say one isn't real. So how do you come with what god could
or could not do when you say these things, it isn't like you really know wha ...[text shortened]... limitations upon
it then declare to us those limitations as if you really knew the limitations.
For me that is abhorrent in the extreme, the slaughter of children, women, old men, all in the name of religion is, I can't even think of a proper word for the distaste in my mouth for all that.
It CERTAINLY is not coming from a god and no god has even said it is wrong.
In fact, it is encoded in several religions it is COMMANDED.
This is not godly. This is human at its worse.
But of course none of that means a thing to you, being SO sure of yourself and you alleged god. Pardon me, God. It's the same scam either way.
And you don't seem to understand my stance.
I never said there is no god. How can I, a mere human blithely assert in this incredible universe and maybe even an infinity of universes, there is no possibility of a god?
I ALWAYS said there is no bible god, the Abrahamic god is a travesty, the worse scourge to ever have hit the human race, more deaths because of that than all the plagues on Earth.