Authority

Originally posted by RJHinds
If it makes us happy, what does it matter if some decisions in this
life are shaped by our religious beliefs?

Now that I have learned they have changed the meaning of evolution to just a change over time, my crusade has moved on to only being against EVIL-LUTION A.K.A MACROEVOLUTION. So you have won a partial victory. Be happy with that and go on abo ...[text shortened]... ease. So why don't we just call a truce and we can go on about our business?

The Instructor

Because the decisions we make don't just effect us they effect everyone else as well.

For example you (and others like you) trying to get creationism as well as or instead
of evolution in science classes has an impact on everyone else.

If you were actually successful then the entirety of biology and modern medicine would
collapse as the foundation was taken out from under it.

Without evolution, and people who understand it, nothing in medicine and biology makes
sense.

So no more new treatments for disease, no cure for cancer, more unnecessary suffering
and death.


People believing things that are not true effects everyone.

If you go around believing nonsense and making decisions based on that then the consequences
effect everyone else.


So that is why we can never have a truce.

Originally posted by googlefudge
Because the decisions we make don't just effect us they effect everyone else as well.

For example you (and others like you) trying to get creationism as well as or instead
of evolution in science classes has an impact on everyone else.

If you were actually successful then the entirety of biology and modern medicine would
collapse as the foundat ...[text shortened]... at then the consequences
effect everyone else.


So that is why we can never have a truce.

That is only your opinion and not fact. Medicine does just fine with Creationism. In fact, the doctors do better with prayer to God and so do the patients.

The Instructor

Originally posted by RJHinds
That is only your opinion and not fact. Medicine does just fine with Creationism. In fact, the doctors do better with prayer to God and so do the patients.

The Instructor

Actually every properly designed study has failed to see any benefit of prayer...
In fact people who know that they are being prayed for tend to do slightly worse...

However that is again irrelevant to the point I was making.


What people believe about the world is the basis for their decisions.
Those decisions effect others.


Lets take a different example.

The guys who flew the planes into the twin towers believed that their actions were
sanctioned by god and that they would be rewarded in an afterlife for their actions.

You are surely not going to argue that these beliefs (among others) didn't lead them
to make decisions and take actions that had no effect on anyone else.


I can give examples all day, but surely even you must be able to see that what people
believe alters how they behave. And that that must have an effect on other people.


Otherwise what's the point in trying to convince people that your god exists if that is not
going to make any difference to what they think and do?

Originally posted by googlefudge
Actually every properly designed study has failed to see any benefit of prayer...
In fact people who know that they are being prayed for tend to do slightly worse...

However that is again irrelevant to the point I was making.


What people believe about the world is the basis for their decisions.
Those decisions effect others.


Lets take a di ...[text shortened]... that your god exists if that is not
going to make any difference to what they think and do?

Whatever.

The Instructor

Originally posted by RJHinds
Whatever.

The Instructor

So that would be you agreeing with me but too being pathetic to actually admit it.



What people believe changes how they behave and how they make decisions.

The decisions people make effect other people.

Thus it's not unreasonable for people to care what others believe.


Anyone with half a brain who thinks about it for more than a few seconds can see that
must be true.

Originally posted by googlefudge
So that would be you agreeing with me but too being pathetic to actually admit it.



What people believe changes how they behave and how they make decisions.

The decisions people make effect other people.

Thus it's not unreasonable for people to care what others believe.


Anyone with half a brain who thinks about it for more than a few seconds can see that
must be true.

A strawman. I was never arguing against that.

The Instructor

Originally posted by RJHinds
A strawman. I was never arguing against that.

The Instructor

Really?

If you are happy to believe you are annihilated with the death of the physical body, then you are free to do so. According to you it makes no difference that we believe in the existence of God or not, because the result is the same in the end.

If it makes us happy, what does it matter if some decisions in this
life are shaped by our religious beliefs?

Because that looks suspiciously like you arguing against just that.


If you were not arguing that I shouldn't care what you believe because what other
people believe doesn't effect me then what were you arguing?

Originally posted by googlefudge
Really?

If you are happy to believe you are annihilated with the death of the physical body, then you are free to do so. According to you it makes no difference that we believe in the existence of God or not, because the result is the same in the end.

[quote]If it makes us happy, what does it matter if some decisions in this
life ar you believe because what other
people believe doesn't effect me then what were you arguing?

Against This:

For example you (and others like you) trying to get creationism as well as or instead of evolution in science classes has an impact on everyone else.

If you were actually successful then the entirety of biology and modern medicine would collapse as the foundation was taken out from under it.

Without evolution, and people who understand it, nothing in medicine and biology makes sense.

So no more new treatments for disease, no cure for cancer, more unnecessary suffering and death.


The Instructor

Originally posted by RJHinds
Against This:

[b]For example you (and others like you) trying to get creationism as well as or instead of evolution in science classes has an impact on everyone else.

If you were actually successful then the entirety of biology and modern medicine would collapse as the foundation was taken out from under it.

Without evolution, and people who under ...[text shortened]... for disease, no cure for cancer, more unnecessary suffering and death.


The Instructor[/b]

Now that's not true.

Because that's an example I brought up AFTER this discussion started and
thus CANNOT be what you were originally arguing about.

You said in the first post in this little sidebar...

... But for those that are not happy to believe as you do, why should they not be allowed to believe something that makes them happy, since in the end, according to you, they are not going to know any difference anyway?

You are arguing there that I shouldn't try to stop people believing stuff I think is wrong
if holding those beliefs make those people happy as their holding those beliefs doesn't
effect me.

Do you accept that I have refuted that argument?

Originally posted by googlefudge
Now that's not true.

Because that's an example I brought up AFTER this discussion started and
thus CANNOT be what you were originally arguing about.

You said in the first post in this little sidebar...

[quote]... But for those that are not happy to believe as you do, why should they not be allowed to believe something that makes them happy, si ...[text shortened]... lding those beliefs doesn't
effect me.

Do you accept that I have refuted that argument?

I was asking the question "Why?" and said nothing about what someone might believe would not effect you. Did I? Got to take nap now. Be back later.

The Instructor

Originally posted by googlefudge
That there... Was the nonsense I was talking about.

Basically you believe what you believe because it feels right to you and it makes you happy.

Which has nothing whatsoever to do with truth and truth seeking.



If you really care about what is or is not true then you cannot care whether that truth is nice
or makes you feel happy.

Many pe ...[text shortened]... have to abide by the standards of skepticism and provide sufficient evidence for
your claims.

Firstly "it" doesn't "make me happy", ok? It's a crap path to take for the ego.

Further I have to admit that atheists are right to to a large extent. After all Buddhism tells us point blank that there is no god. Also that there is no outer agency that will "save" you. Only you can help yourself.


I ADMIT I COULD BE DEAD WRONG. But that is largely because of lingistical disparencies . Also I also think that we may well be creating the realities that we believe. You have your static , Newtonian universe. I see that quantum has just scratched the surface of 'deeper' realms of reality that do not contradict the Newtonian view (except ever so slightly 🙂 ) in the macro-world view.


Do you not admit any possibility that you and I are both DEAD WRONG ? I can. And it is said that when one realizes that they are asleep, then they already have one eye open.

Originally posted by sonship

Christ tolerant ? Hell NO. Christ had a clear message of Love .. Love God and Love Others. Violate that and you are Doomed.

Christ all-inclusive? NO. You want all inclusive ? I can recommend a few resorts in the Caribbean area. You wont get that in the Bible.

Understand my role? I do. You apparently are still searching for you .. so happy hunting.

Man you are way off. You're more way off than I originally thought.

Thank you sonship for highlighting the different ways in which Christ is viewed.

It really bugs me when so-called Christians come and tell me that I have no idea about what Christ was really like when I can almost feel his words through the millenia. He must have been liked by the people of the time or else his legacy would never have continued to this day.

Originally posted by karoly aczel
Firstly "it" doesn't "make me happy", ok? It's a crap path to take for the ego.

Further I have to admit that atheists are right to to a large extent. After all Buddhism tells us point blank that there is no god. Also that there is no outer agency that will "save" you. Only you can help yourself.


I ADMIT I COULD BE DEAD WRONG. But that is large ...[text shortened]... said that when one realizes that they are asleep, then they already have one eye open.

Yes I fully admit the possibility of being wrong.

The problem here is that I am not looking at the possibility of being wrong but
the probability of being wrong (and to what degree).

It's possible that the world is actually a flat disk spinning on the backs of four
giant elephants themselves standing on the back of a giant star turtle...

It's possible that we live in the matrix...

It is not however probable.

There are infinite mutually exclusive possibilities that might be possibly possible.

The only way of sensibly dealing with that is to forget possibilities and deal instead with
probabilities.

If your 'possibility' doesn't attain a noticeable probability mass after a Bayesian analysis
of the evidence then it's not worth considering outside of a philosophical hypothetical.

Originally posted by RJHinds
We are never going to see proof that God does not exist. We are never going to see proof that God did not create the universe. We are never going to see proof that God did not create life. We are never going to see proof that there is no form of life after the death of the body.

If you are happy to believe you are annihilated with the death of the phys ...[text shortened]... n the end, according to you, they are not going to know any difference anyway?

The Instructor

And while I disagree about what we think "God" means here, I whole heartedly agree that it doesn't matter a rats whether one believes in another realities existence or not.

"Proof" is just the scientists way of making meaning from the universe. Unfortunately their means of understanding a message from say the fifth dimension is not sufficient. We can not understand a 5-d message in 3-d understanding, and as it stands, science by and large only admits to the physical reality which they can bump up against and 'prove'. The more subtle , non-physical realities are imperceptible to them.

Originally posted by karoly aczel
Thank you sonship for highlighting the different ways in which Christ is viewed.

It really bugs me when so-called Christians come and tell me that I have no idea about what Christ was really like when I can almost feel his words through the millenia. He must have been liked by the people of the time or else his legacy would never have continued to this day.

Actually he [JC] was probably made up...

However the stories about him that make up the bible were selected at the
Council of Nicaea as being the ones that were most popular on the streets.