Baptism?

Originally posted by Badwater
Robbie, what is going on is the symbolic conference of authority. It matters not if the dove is a dove, or is God, or is God as the holy spirit. It matters not if the symbol is a dove, a mosquito, a falling tree - it is still conferring authority to Jesus of Nazareth and stating the nature of who he is and what his ministry will be in the eyes of God.

Th ...[text shortened]... I do get along with many people even though I might take exception to some of their viewpoints.

ok so you dont think that the dove is symbolic of anything, ok but it still begs the question why a dove. i do not dispute the conferring of authority, on this we are in full agreement as can be ascertained from the text. You shall probably find that if we are in same room, i would have the utmost respect for you and probably feel quite intimidated 🙂

what about this phrase 'the heavens were opened up', I remember someone telling me that it may have been at this point that Christ received full knowledge of his pre human existence, although as yet i have not researched it and do not know if it can be determined from the text.

Originally posted by Badwater
Robbie, what is going on is the symbolic conference of authority. It matters not if the dove is a dove, or is God, or is God as the holy spirit. It matters not if the symbol is a dove, a mosquito, a falling tree - it is still conferring authority to Jesus of Nazareth and stating the nature of who he is and what his ministry will be in the eyes of God.

Th ...[text shortened]... I do get along with many people even though I might take exception to some of their viewpoints.

Robbie, what is going on is the symbolic conference of authority. It matters not if the dove is a dove, or is God, or is God as the holy spirit. It matters not if the symbol is a dove, a mosquito, a falling tree - it is still conferring authority to Jesus of Nazareth and stating the nature of who he is and what his ministry will be in the eyes of God.

The present discussion is not about the meaning of the descent of the Holy Spirit. Had that been subject to debate, everyone would have agreed that the message is that God approves of His son and the son has authority. The question which Robbie asks is 'Why a dove?'. I do not see how your response is helpful. Robbie was not denying that this passage affirms the authority of Jesus.

I doubt that the form of the dove is merely accidental and the Holy Spirit could just have descended as a mosquito. Possibly the dove is a reference to the temple sacrifices. The dove was offerred in the temple to remit sin and to accomplish atonement for the penitent. So the dove might be foreshadowing the redemption that will reconcile mankind to God. Alternatively, it could be a sign of Jesus' own sacrifice. Another interpretation could be that the dove is a reference to the dove which revealed land to Noah. The dove might then symbolise the imminent salvation of mankind. I do not think that the choice of a dove is just random.

Originally posted by Conrau K

The present discussion is not about the meaning of the descent of the Holy Spirit. Had that been subject to debate, everyone would have agreed that the message is that God approves of His son and the son has authority. The question which Robbie asks is 'Why a dove?'. I do not see how your response is helpful. Robbie was not denying that this passage affir ...[text shortened]... e the imminent salvation of mankind. I do not think that the choice of a dove is just random.

Wow, you're taking quite a tangent there. I'm responding to the first post and you're going off about doves, which I have stated is quite unimportant.

Originally posted by Badwater
Wow, you're taking quite a tangent there. I'm responding to the first post and you're going off about doves, which I have stated is quite unimportant.

I don't see how my post was in any way tangential. Robbie asked:

look Baddy let me state it plainly and without ambiguity, do you have any idea why the Holy spirit is in this instance takes the form of a dove? do you have any thoughts on this phrase, 'the heavens were opened up'. Contrary perhaps to your own perceptions i do value your thoughts, however, when you overstep the mark then you must be reeled in again

You responded:

Robbie, what is going on is the symbolic conference of authority. It matters not if the dove is a dove, or is God, or is God as the holy spirit. It matters not if the symbol is a dove, a mosquito, a falling tree - it is still conferring authority to Jesus of Nazareth and stating the nature of who he is and what his ministry will be in the eyes of God.

All I did was intervene to say that -- your response does not answer his question and that it is quite likely that the dove does have some symbolic value. Robbie asks 'Why a dove' and you respond 'Who cares'. I don't see that as helpful. In fact, your response is quite irrelevant.

Originally posted by Conrau K
... 'Who cares'. I don't see that as helpful. In fact, your response is quite irrelevant.

Then you miss the point.

What-ever.

Originally posted by Badwater
Then you miss the point.

What-ever.

No. You miss the point. We all acknowledge that the descent of the Holy Spirit is the affirmation of Jesus' authority. It marks the beginning of his ministerial life. I think Robbie's response is just a diplomatically expressed 'Duh!!!. The question is why a dove? It is an important image. Your argument is something like 'Well, since the message is about a conferral of authority, we can dismiss all the details.' But that is as stupid as saying 'Since the crucifixion is about Jesus' sacrifice, we can ignore the tearing of the temple veil.' It is a hermeneutical single-mindedness.

Originally posted by Conrau K
No. You miss the point. We all acknowledge that the descent of the Holy Spirit is the affirmation of Jesus' authority. It marks the beginning of his ministerial life. I think Robbie's response is just a diplomatically expressed 'Duh!!!. The question is why a dove? It is an important image. Your argument is something like 'Well, since the messa ...[text shortened]... we can ignore the tearing of the temple veil.' It is a hermeneutical single-mindedness.

That's not my point. That does not address what this thread is about. I did, however, address it.

And that's about all I have on it. You're looping about the importance of a tree and missing the significance of the forest.

Originally posted by Badwater
That's not my point. That does not address what this thread is about. I did, however, address it.

And that's about all I have on it. You're looping about the importance of a tree and missing the significance of the forest.

Whatever. You might as well but out then. No one disputes what the descent of the Holy Spirit means (we all see the importance of the forest.) Your interjection is irrelevant. If anyone else can help answer Robbie's question however, then they should contribute.

(Matthew 3:16) . . .After being baptised Jesus immediately came up from the water; and, look! the heavens were opened up, and he saw descending like a dove God’s spirit coming upon him.

(Mark 1:10) 10 And immediately on coming up out of the water he saw the heavens being parted, and, like a dove, the spirit coming down *upon him;

* Or, “into”; that is, to enter into him.

(Luke 3:21-22) . . .Jesus also was baptised and, as he was praying, the heaven was opened up 22 and the holy spirit in bodily shape like a dove came down upon hi. . .

(John 1:32) . . .John also bore witness, saying: “I viewed the spirit coming down as a dove out of heaven, and it remained upon him. . .

At the time of Jesus baptism and subsequent anointing by Gods holy spirit, that holy spirit was caused to appear “in bodily shape like a dove,” its visible descent upon Jesus perhaps being similar to the fluttering descent of the dove as it approaches its perch. (Lu 3:22; Mt 3:16; Mr 1:10; Joh 1:32-34) It was an apt symbol, in view of its characteristic innocence.—Mt 10:16.

Doves were used for sacrificial purposes, as is indicated by their being sold by those pursuing commercial activities at the temple in Jerusalem, although the term “doves [Gr., peristeas]” may here indicate the “turtledoves” or “young pigeons” mentioned in the Mosaic Law.—Mr 11:15; Joh 2:14-16.

Thus it seems that Conrau was indeed on the right tracks, it being a symbol of sacrifice and of innocence and thus it would indeed appear not to be on no consequence, but chosen as a very fitting and apt symbol for the Christ himself and Christians by extension! Is it not beautiful!

(Matthew 10:16) . . .“Look! I am sending you forth as sheep amidst wolves; therefore prove yourselves cautious as serpents and yet innocent as doves.