Baptism?

Originally posted by Conrau K
Firstly, I don't think the silence particularly surpising. St. John the evangelist says that if everything Jesus did and said were recorded, the whole world would not fill the books that would be written.

Secondly, Jesus' baptism is a problem for all Christians, not just me. The Gospels say that John preached baptism 'for the forgiveness of sins'. So wh his baptism was symbolic, a precursor to the baptism which Christ would later institute.

So why did Jesus need to be baptised?

Look at Jesus' answer to John.

Mathew 3:14,15
But John forbad him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me? And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness.

Originally posted by josephw
[b]So why did Jesus need to be baptised?

Look at Jesus' answer to John.

Mathew 3:14,15
But John forbad him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me? And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness.[/b]

yes but what does this mean?

Originally posted by josephw
[b]So why did Jesus need to be baptised?

Look at Jesus' answer to John.

Mathew 3:14,15
But John forbad him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me? And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness.[/b]

This only complicates the question. Why would Jesus need a baptism 'of repentence for the forgiveness of sins'? Why would Jesus need to 'fulfill all righteousness'?

Originally posted by Conrau K
This only complicates the question. Why would Jesus need a baptism 'of repentence for the forgiveness of sins'? Why would Jesus need to 'fulfill all righteousness'?

Among those who came to John to be baptised was Jesus himself. But why? Knowing that Jesus had no sins to confess, John said: “I am the one needing to be baptised by you, and are you coming to me?”

But Jesus’ baptism was to symbolize something different. So Jesus replied: “Let it be, this time, for in that way it is suitable for us to carry out all that is righteous.” (Matthew 3:13-15) Because Jesus was without sin, his baptism did not symbolize repentance over sin; nor did he need to dedicate himself to God, since he was a member of a nation already dedicated to Jehovah. Rather, his baptism at 30 years of age was unique to him, and it symbolized the presenting of himself to his heavenly Father to do His further will.

God’s will for Christ Jesus involved activity in connection with the Kingdom. (Luke 8:1) It also involved the sacrifice of his perfect human life as a ransom and as the basis for a new covenant. (Matthew 20:28; 26:26-28; Hebrews 10:5-10) Jesus took very seriously what his water baptism symbolized. He did not allow his attention to be diverted to other interests. To the end of his earthly life, he stuck to the doing of God’s will, making the preaching of God’s Kingdom his main work.—John 4:34.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
Among those who came to John to be baptised was Jesus himself. But why? Knowing that Jesus had no sins to confess, John said: “I am the one needing to be baptised by you, and are you coming to me?”

But Jesus’ baptism was to symbolize something different. So Jesus replied: “Let it be, this time, for in that way it is suitable for us to carry out a ...[text shortened]... tuck to the doing of God’s will, making the preaching of God’s Kingdom his main work.—John 4:34.

Excellent.

Originally posted by Conrau K
Excellent.

I agree......

here is very interesting question that i myself have as yet found no answer to, and i do not know if one exists, why was the holy spirit which John 'saw', at Christ's baptism in the shape of a dove?

(John 1:32-34) . . .John also bore witness, saying: “I viewed the spirit coming down as a dove out of heaven, and it remained upon him.  Even I did not know him, but the very One who sent me to baptize in water said to me, ‘Whoever it is upon whom you see the spirit coming down and remaining, this is the one that baptizes in holy spirit.’ And I have seen it, and I have borne witness that this one is the Son of God.”

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
here is very interesting question that i myself have as yet found no answer to, and i do not know if one exists, why was the holy spirit which John 'saw', at Christ's baptism in the shape of a dove?

(John 1:32-34) . . .John also bore witness, saying: “I viewed the spirit coming down as a dove out of heaven, and it remained upon him.  Even I did no ...[text shortened]... holy spirit.’ And I have seen it, and I have borne witness that this one is the Son of God.”

Could maybe be bacause doves were used for sacrificial purposes?

Would it be too much to assume that Jesus was simply "showing us how it's done"? He said: "Pray like this", and then He gave us the Lord's Prayer. Since I consider communion to be a symbol (I know--Lutherans aren't supposed to say that; it's just that the Methodist in me makes more sense in this regard 😉 ), I have no problem with many of Jesus' actions being symbolic. Baptizing babies? Sure! No problem. It's a symbol of the parents' and the church's accepting their responsibilities. No, Jesus didn't need to have His sins "washed away" in a baptismal rite--but what harm was there in showing us, in a symbolic gesture, what we were supposed to do. (Not that it's a requirement to get your ticket punched to heaven, now---we all know that the thief on the cross didn't get baptised and he made it,...but I digress).

Originally posted by galveston75
Could maybe be bacause doves were used for sacrificial purposes?

its as plausible an explanation as i think i have heard.

Conference of authority, people. It's so sad that no one gets that.

Jesus' ministry begins when God appears as a dove and confers authority. It's very plain, unless one (like so many here) chooses to violently imbue their own predetermined views upon the Scripture. I, for one, can do without the assaults upon the written word, where the strident, shrill cry of the present must be forced upon scriptural interpretation.

Give me a break. It is there, but to be read.

Originally posted by Badwater
Conference of authority, people. It's so sad that no one gets that.

Jesus' ministry begins when God appears as a dove and confers authority. It's very plain, unless one (like so many here) chooses to violently imbue their own predetermined views upon the Scripture. I, for one, can do without the assaults upon the written word, where the strident, shrill ...[text shortened]... st be forced upon scriptural interpretation.

Give me a break. It is there, but to be read.

i had to read this a second time to make sure i wasn't dreaming. it does not state that God was a dove, it merely states that the holy spirit (not God) descends in the shape of a dove. if this is not violently imbuing ones own predetermined views upon scripture then i dont know what is. The question is not what was happening, but why a dove, why not an eagle or an owl or any other animate shape. Does the dove have any significance, for it can hardly be viewed as a symbol of authority, can it? as to the second point, that God was conferring authority, yes, this can actually be inferred from scripture.

(Matthew 3:13-17) . . .Then Jesus came from Galilee to the Jordan to John, in order to be baptised by him.  But the latter tried to prevent him, saying: “I am the one needing to be baptised by you, and are you coming to me?”  In reply Jesus said to him: “Let it be, this time, for in that way it is suitable for us to carry out all that is righteous.” Then he quit preventing him. After being baptised Jesus immediately came up from the water; and, look! the heavens were opened up, and he saw descending like a dove Gods spirit coming upon him.  Look! Also, there was a voice from the heavens that said: “This is my Son, the beloved, whom I have approved.”

here is another point worthy of note, what is the significance, if any of the phrase 'the heavens were opened up'. are we referring to the literal heavens as is sometimes referred to in statements such as 'the birds of the heavens', or is it referring to the spiritual realm? or perhaps to both?

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
i had to read this a second time to make sure i wasn't dreaming. it does not state that God was a dove, it merely states that the holy spirit (not God) descends in the shape of a dove. if this is not violently imbuing ones own predetermined views upon scripture then i dont know what is. The question is not what was happening, but why a dove, why n ...[text shortened]... 'the birds of the heavens', or is it referring to the spiritual realm? or perhaps to both?

Robbie, your comic book powers of interpretation are insane (literally) and only apparent to you. I already knew you wouldn't get it.

Originally posted by Badwater
Robbie, your comic book powers of interpretation are insane (literally) and only apparent to you. I already knew you wouldn't get it.

yeah yeah another guy telling me how i should think? look Baddy let me state it plainly and without ambiguity, do you have any idea why the Holy spirit is in this instance takes the form of a dove? do you have any thoughts on this phrase, 'the heavens were opened up'. Contrary perhaps to your own perceptions i do value your thoughts, however, when you overstep the mark then you must be reeled in again. 🙂

Robbie, what is going on is the symbolic conference of authority. It matters not if the dove is a dove, or is God, or is God as the holy spirit. It matters not if the symbol is a dove, a mosquito, a falling tree - it is still conferring authority to Jesus of Nazareth and stating the nature of who he is and what his ministry will be in the eyes of God.

There now, was that so difficult? 🙂

And for the record, I do think that were we to be in the same room face to face, we would get along just fine. I do get along with many people even though I might take exception to some of their viewpoints.