Baptism

Originally posted by josephw
You did answer the question.

[b]"And no I'm not saved and neither is anyone else on this earth".


That's right galveston, you're not saved because you haven't believed that what Jesus did on the cross is good enough to get you saved.

Like all good "religious" persons you think you can "do" or "work" your way to salvation.

That's what you bel ...[text shortened]... der the law and not under grace.

That is something you had better learn quickly.[/b]

Lol.....Unless you make a comment on the scriptures and explain to me why they are wrong, my conversation with you is over.
Your sidestep answers and obvious refusing to comment on them so far is very typical of ones who think they are saved now. The reason? You can't.

And still my friend...I ""never"" said any works I do will save me. The works Jesus said to do must not apply to you then? Are you above them? Are you above Jesus as he himself did them as well as all his Apostles? You must be....

Originally posted by galveston75
Lol.....Unless you make a comment on the scriptures and explain to me why they are wrong, my conversation with you is over.
Your sidestep answers and obvious refusing to comment on them so far is very typical of ones who think they are saved now. The reason? You can't.

And still my friend...I ""never"" said any works I do will save me. The works Je ...[text shortened]... em? Are you above Jesus as he himself did them as well as all his Apostles? You must be....

"Unless you make a comment on the scriptures and explain to me why they are wrong,.."

The scriptures are never wrong.

But you are.

Even if I did "use" the scriptures to prove you are wrong you still wouldn't believe. I can't even appeal to your reason much less the twisted way you comprehend the Bible.

You don't even know who Jesus is.

Originally posted by josephw
[b]"Unless you make a comment on the scriptures and explain to me why they are wrong,.."

The scriptures are never wrong.

But you are.

Even if I did "use" the scriptures to prove you are wrong you still wouldn't believe. I can't even appeal to your reason much less the twisted way you comprehend the Bible.

You don't even know who Jesus is.[/b]

You seem to be a very arrogant person with your judgemental statements. Not a good Christian quality I think. Are you my judge or is Jesus?
Still can't comment on those scriptures huh?

It's only 3 fairly simple ones...Go ahead and give it a try.

Originally posted by galveston75
You seem to be a very arrogant person with your judgemental statements. Not a good Christian quality I think. Are you my judge or is Jesus?
Still can't comment on those scriptures huh?

It's only 3 fairly simple ones...Go ahead and give it a try.

Why are you on the defencive?

I haven't judged you, only what you think, say, and do. It is they that will judge you.

Arrogant? Hardly. Confident? Supremely.


Never mind your questions. Lets get at the crux of the matter.

Who is Jesus?

Originally posted by josephw
Why are you on the defencive?

I haven't judged you, only what you think, say, and do. It is they that will judge you.

Arrogant? Hardly. Confident? Supremely.


Never mind your questions. Lets get at the crux of the matter.

Who is Jesus?

Lol...My scriptures first. The more you refuse to comment on them the more it proves you don't understand them or think they don't apply to you. Which is it?

Originally posted by galveston75
Lol...My scriptures first. The more you refuse to comment on them the more it proves you don't understand them or think they don't apply to you. Which is it?

Deja Vu

I believe we've been at this cross road before.

Okay! Restate your question(s) again afresh please, then I will do my level best to engage with you about them.

But realise this may take considerable time and may need days or even weeks to fully address.

Originally posted by galveston75
Paid up? What does that mean?

You know full well it means; a proper and accepted member of the JW organisation. If you are not a member of your earthly organisation you cannot go to heaven irrespective of baptism - or are you denying this?

Originally posted by josephw
Deja Vu

I believe we've been at this cross road before.

Okay! Restate your question(s) again afresh please, then I will do my level best to engage with you about them.

But realise this may take considerable time and may need days or even weeks to fully address.

Fair enough....here is the post I'm refering to:


So once one accepts Jesus, there are no works involved? That's not what Jesus said. Check out John 14: 11,12:

John 14:11-12 (New International Version, ©2010)
11 Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the works themselves. 12 Very truly I tell you, whoever believes in me will do the works I have been doing, and they will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father.

Also check out James 2:26:

James 2:26 (New International Version, ©2010)
26 As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.

Also John 9:4:

John 9:4 (New International Version, ©2010)
4 As long as it is day, we must do the works of him who sent me. Night is coming, when no one can work.

These are the 3 simply scriptures I want someone like yourself who say works such as these are not needed. That is if you know what the works are that are being described here...
It really shouldn't take as long as you think as there pretty clear cut.

Originally posted by galveston75
Fair enough....here is the post I'm refering to:


So once one accepts Jesus, there are no works involved? That's not what Jesus said. Check out John 14: 11,12:

John 14:11-12 (New International Version, ©2010)
11 Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the works themselves. 12 ...[text shortened]... described here...
It really shouldn't take as long as you think as there pretty clear cut.

"So once one accepts Jesus, there are no works involved?"

Who said that? You make an assumption and project it onto others. It's a common error. You should read more carefully what is posted.

John 14:12 (KJV) Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

Which works? Raising the dead? Healing the blind? Have you done those things?


James 2:26 (KJV) For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Faith without works is dead.

Consider this; Ephesians 2:8,9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

You see galveston, when talking about salvation, we are talking about eternal life, and that life is a gift freely given. Not earned by doing "works".


John 9:4 (New International Version, ©2010)
As long as it is day, we must do the works of him who sent me. Night is coming, when no one can work.

Here's how it is worded in the KJV. I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day: the night cometh, when no man can work.

Again, as in the other verses you sited, the question isn't about salvation. but about the Christian walk. The verses you reference are about Christian conduct and not about how to be saved.

Can you see that?


You see galveston, I was and am now talking about salvation. I'm not talking about how a Christian is to conduct himself. Can you see the distinction?

The verses you referenced are not salvation verses. They are verses about how one is to live and behave as a Christian.

Originally posted by josephw
[b]"So once one accepts Jesus, there are no works involved?"

Who said that? You make an assumption and project it onto others. It's a common error. You should read more carefully what is posted.

John 14:12 (KJV) Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he ...[text shortened]... ot salvation verses. They are verses about how one is to live and behave as a Christian.[/b]

Well the works he spoke of could not be refering to miracals as they were done away with after the last of the apostles died.

1 Corinthians 13:8-11 (New International Version, ©2010)

8 Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10 but when completeness comes, what is in part disappears. 11 When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood behind me.

So Jesus was not refering to those works but to the greater work he commissioned his followers to do in Matt the 24th and 28th chapters.

Matthew 24:14 (New International Version, ©2010)
14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.

Matthew 28:19-20 (New International Version, ©2010)
19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”

Acts 5:42 (New International Version, ©2010)
42 Day after day, in the temple courts and from house to house, they never stopped teaching and proclaiming the good news that Jesus is the Messiah.

Luke 8:1 (New International Version, ©2010)

Luke 8
1 After this, Jesus traveled about from one town and village to another, proclaiming the good news of the kingdom of God. The Twelve were with him,

Luke 10:1-4 (New International Version, ©2010)

Luke 10
Jesus Sends Out the Seventy-Two
1 After this the Lord appointed seventy-two[a] others and sent them two by two ahead of him to every town and place where he was about to go. 2 He told them, “The harvest is plentiful, but the workers are few. Ask the Lord of the harvest, therefore, to send out workers into his harvest field. 3 Go! I am sending you out like lambs among wolves. 4 Do not take a purse or bag or sandals; and do not greet anyone on the road.


And again as I've answered, no, works cannot save one as neither does just faith. If it was just Faith alone then these scriptures are wrong. We not only have to have true faith but we have to show that by our actions. This gift is free but we have to prove we deserve it and that we are humble enough to do the work Jesus said to do..

Jesus clearly gave a command in Matt 24 & 28th chapters which for some reason is ignored. Why do you think they don't apply to you and why would you not want to be involved as it is a life saving work that is being done? Are you too good because you think your saved and "in" so now you don't have to worry about anyone but yourself? That's what your emplying by saying no one is required to do works, the work of helping to save life's that do not know what the Bible teaches.
Again why does this not apply to you and why are you not involved in this work? It applied to the apostles..right?

So my first post was poorly worded, plus I wrongly said aspersion was a method, but I nailed the can of worms part. Remember Jesus loves you all, no matter how you got wet. 😉

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
There is no scriptural record of any of the apostles of Christ having undergone a Christian baptism!

Acts 9: 15 But the Lord said to Ananias, “Go! This man is my chosen instrument to proclaim my name to the Gentiles and their kings and to the people of Israel. 16 I will show him how much he must suffer for my name.”

17 Then Ananias went to the house and entered it. Placing his hands on Saul, he said, “Brother Saul, the Lord—Jesus, who appeared to you on the road as you were coming here—has sent me so that you may see again and be filled with the Holy Spirit.” 18 Immediately, something like scales fell from Saul’s eyes, and he could see again. He got up and was baptized, 19 and after taking some food, he regained his strength.




so.... maybe you may want to retract your statement now.

Originally posted by ChessPraxis
So my first post was poorly worded, plus I wrongly said aspersion was a method, but I nailed the can of worms part. Remember Jesus loves you all, no matter how you got wet. 😉

Of couse he does as long as we keep our worship to Jesus and his Father pure. Remember "a little leven fermits the whole lump".

Originally posted by galveston75
Well the works he spoke of could not be refering to miracals as they were done away with after the last of the apostles died.

1 Corinthians 13:8-11 (New International Version, ©2010)

8 Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. 9 For pply to you and why are you not involved in this work? It applied to the apostles..right?

Why do you assume I'm not involved in the work?

Remember Ephesians 2:8&9? Take a look at verse 10 as well.

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.


Again galveston, I ask you, why the emphasis on doing work when we are talking about salvation? The two don't mix.

Can't you see that, I ask kindly?


Think about this. Why would God command us to do something ourselves for His salvation? (Gift of eternal life) God did that for us. If we could earn salvation wouldn't it be by keeping the law perfectly as Jesus did? But we can't. And neither can we do enough good works to earn salvation when we can't even keep the law!


I know you think I'm trying to deceive you. That would be a lie.

I say as the Apostle Paul said;

2 Corinthians 11:31 - The God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which is blessed for evermore, knoweth that I lie not.

ying about anything. I have no reason to think that.Originally posted by josephw
Why do you assume I'm not involved in the work?

Remember Ephesians 2:8&9? Take a look at verse 10 as well.

For by grace are ye [b]saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in C ...[text shortened]... d Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which is blessed for evermore, knoweth that I lie not.

I don't believe your lying about anything. I have no reason to even think that.
As I said our salvation rest completely in God's hands as it is a gift no one deserves, me included.
And again there is no work, action or whatever that can earn us that. I hope you understand what I'm saying.
But I have know many, many people in my life including family members in other religions that claim they are saved "now" because they have accepted Jesus and vow to live holesome and clean lifes.
But in this state of mind they are in they really don't see the need or importance that there is more that we are to be doing. We just don't stop at saying, "I believe in Christ". The immediate followers of Jesus certianly didn't. They worked very hard and tirelessly at the door to door and town to town work that Jesus did. And in fact that door to door or other types of preaching and teaching is the majority of what Jesus did while he was here. And he was very clear that his followers were to do the same because that is the only way to really reach ones of the earth that have not heard about Jesus and what the future holds for all humans.
So it simply is confusing to me why most who believe they are in this saved position seem to think that's all they have to do. Who of use has the position in life that we can ignor what Jesus told us to do? That's all I question....