1. St. Peter's
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    07 Jan '11 23:58
    virtually all Christian denominations decalre baptism as a necessary rite for salvation. I would like to pose this scenerio for your consideration:

    A man, 28 yeras old, grew up in a non-religous home. He was never baptized, nor had much interest in faith. An event in his life triggers a search for "greater truth" leading him to accept Christ as his savior at the home of a friend conducting a bible study. On his way home he is met with a horrible accident that claims his life before he has a chance to be baptized, is he saved from eternal damnation? If yes, then why do we baptize? If no, what significance is there in baptism?
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    08 Jan '11 00:16
    Originally posted by Doward
    virtually all Christian denominations decalre baptism as a necessary rite for salvation. I would like to pose this scenerio for your consideration:

    A man, 28 yeras old, grew up in a non-religous home. He was never baptized, nor had much interest in faith. An event in his life triggers a search for "greater truth" leading him to accept Christ as his savior ...[text shortened]... ernal damnation? If yes, then why do we baptize? If no, what significance is there in baptism?
    Didn't you know, Christ climbed down from the cross and baptized the thief hanging next to him who was saved and then climbed back up.
  3. Joined
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    08 Jan '11 00:251 edit
    Originally posted by Doward
    virtually all Christian denominations decalre baptism as a necessary rite for salvation. I would like to pose this scenerio for your consideration:

    A man, 28 yeras old, grew up in a non-religous home. He was never baptized, nor had much interest in faith. An event in his life triggers a search for "greater truth" leading him to accept Christ as his savior ...[text shortened]... ernal damnation? If yes, then why do we baptize? If no, what significance is there in baptism?
    Since the time of the Church Fathers, there has been recognised three types of baptism: baptism of water, baptism of blood and baptism of spirit. The first is sacramental, that is, it has a particular rite, minister and object. It is the one performed in the church by the minister (although this is not requisite). Catholic and Orthodox Christianity deem sacramental baptism a necessary precursor for any other participation in the sacraments.

    The other types of baptism are different. Baptism of blood is not sacramental. It has no minister nor rite. Baptism of blood pertains to an individual who is martyred in the name of Christ or Church. Baptism of spirit is similar but pertains to those who desire baptism but, for whatever reason for which they are not culpable, were unable to receive it. In this scenario, the man would be believed to have received baptism of spirit. An interesting point is whether this desire must be explicit or implicit. If explicit, the person must very specifically have wanted baptism before their death; if implicit, the must person need only have desired to live a good life, which, without them knowing, would really constitute a desire to serve Christ. The Catholic Church recognises the possibility of baptism of spirit by implicit desire, although many Pentecostal churches may not.

    You may ask why, then, sacramental baptism is important if alternative forms are available. Well, the important distinction here is between necessity and efficacy. While baptism is necessary and all three forms of baptism are sufficient, sacramental baptism is, traditionally, regarded as more efficacious. While all forms of baptism remove original sin, only sacramental baptism configures the soul to receive Communion, confession, confirmation, holy orders, a sacramental marriage and finally extreme unction -- all of which are taught to be efficacious to the soul.
  4. Standard memberChessPraxis
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    08 Jan '11 00:51
    Originally posted by Doward
    virtually all Christian denominations decalre baptism as a necessary rite for salvation. I would like to pose this scenerio for your consideration:

    A man, 28 yeras old, grew up in a non-religous home. He was never baptized, nor had much interest in faith. An event in his life triggers a search for "greater truth" leading him to accept Christ as his savior ...[text shortened]... ernal damnation? If yes, then why do we baptize? If no, what significance is there in baptism?
    Baptism is a whole can of worms in conflicting denominational doctrines. Some believe it to be a sacrament only for newborn babies. Some believe it is to happen later in life once you become dedicated etc. Some believe in complete immersion, while some sprinkle or pour.
    😕
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    08 Jan '11 01:09
    Originally posted by ChessPraxis
    Baptism is a whole can of worms in conflicting denominational doctrines. Some believe it to be a sacrament only for newborn babies. Some believe it is to happen later in life once you become dedicated etc. Some believe in complete immersion, while some sprinkle or pour.
    😕
    Baptism is a whole can of worms in conflicting denominational doctrines. Some believe it to be a sacrament only for newborn babies. Some believe it is to happen later in life once you become dedicated etc. Some believe in complete immersion, while some sprinkle or pour.

    I am unaware of any denominations which restrict baptism to infants or use aspersion as the means of baptism.
  6. St. Peter's
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    08 Jan '11 01:25
    Originally posted by Conrau K
    [b]Baptism is a whole can of worms in conflicting denominational doctrines. Some believe it to be a sacrament only for newborn babies. Some believe it is to happen later in life once you become dedicated etc. Some believe in complete immersion, while some sprinkle or pour.

    I am unaware of any denominations which restrict baptism to infants or use aspersion as the means of baptism.[/b]
    many denominations sprinkle. Some denominations recognize any amount of water can be used
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    08 Jan '11 02:03
    Originally posted by Conrau K
    Since the time of the Church Fathers, there has been recognised three types of baptism: baptism of water, baptism of blood and baptism of spirit. The first is sacramental, that is, it has a particular rite, minister and object. It is the one performed in the church by the minister (although this is not requisite). Catholic and Orthodox Christianity deem sac ...[text shortened]... l marriage and finally extreme unction -- all of which are taught to be efficacious to the soul.
    Well according to the examples in the bible of ones being baptized which would also include Jesus's own baptism there was only one type of physical baptism which was total immersion in water, no sprinkling.
    And never, never were there any examples or records of infants being baptised. The reason for this never happening is a child has no knowledge or understanding what being baptized is for or the reason behind it.
  8. Standard memberChessPraxis
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    08 Jan '11 02:181 edit
    Originally posted by Conrau K
    [b]Baptism is a whole can of worms in conflicting denominational doctrines. Some believe it to be a sacrament only for newborn babies. Some believe it is to happen later in life once you become dedicated etc. Some believe in complete immersion, while some sprinkle or pour.

    I am unaware of any denominations which restrict baptism to infants or use aspersion as the means of baptism.[/b]
    Good point, my statement was poorly worded, omit the word "only" please.
    Catholics, Episcopalians, and Lutherans e.g. baptise infants.
    Also thank you for clearing up my aspersion mistake. I assumed it was a regular method in some denomination, it turns out it is one method, but not regularly employed.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aspersion
  9. Account suspended
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    08 Jan '11 02:39
    Originally posted by Doward
    virtually all Christian denominations decalre baptism as a necessary rite for salvation. I would like to pose this scenerio for your consideration:

    A man, 28 yeras old, grew up in a non-religous home. He was never baptized, nor had much interest in faith. An event in his life triggers a search for "greater truth" leading him to accept Christ as his savior ...[text shortened]... ernal damnation? If yes, then why do we baptize? If no, what significance is there in baptism?
    There is no scriptural record of any of the apostles of Christ having undergone a Christian baptism!
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    08 Jan '11 07:42
    Originally posted by galveston75
    Well according to the examples in the bible of ones being baptized which would also include Jesus's own baptism there was only one type of physical baptism which was total immersion in water, no sprinkling.
    And never, never were there any examples or records of infants being baptised. The reason for this never happening is a child has no knowledge or understanding what being baptized is for or the reason behind it.
    I am not going to argue about the validity of baptism by infusion or aspersion or the validity of infant baptism. I think tradition is a reliable guide in this regard.
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    08 Jan '11 07:46
    Originally posted by ChessPraxis
    Good point, my statement was poorly worded, omit the word "only" please.
    Catholics, Episcopalians, and Lutherans e.g. baptise infants.
    Also thank you for clearing up my aspersion mistake. I assumed it was a regular method in some denomination, it turns out it is one method, but not regularly employed.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aspersion
    Also thank you for clearing up my aspersion mistake. I assumed it was a regular method in some denomination, it turns out it is one method, but not regularly employed.

    Yes. In old Catholic moral theology manuals, it was taught that for aspersion to be valid, the droplets of water must at least drip across the forehead, thereby effecting an infusion of water. In any case, aspersion was restricted only to exceptional circumstances (i.e. immediate death) and conditional baptism would need to be conferred later. Aspersion is really only used in liturgy, such as the beginning of High Mass when the congregation chant asperges me.
  12. Subscriberdivegeester
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    08 Jan '11 10:30
    Originally posted by Doward
    virtually all Christian denominations decalre baptism as a necessary rite for salvation. I would like to pose this scenerio for your consideration:

    A man, 28 yeras old, grew up in a non-religous home. He was never baptized, nor had much interest in faith. An event in his life triggers a search for "greater truth" leading him to accept Christ as his savior ...[text shortened]... ernal damnation? If yes, then why do we baptize? If no, what significance is there in baptism?
    There will be many views on this I'm sure, here is mine.

    Baptismal regeneration is doctrinal error because we are saved by grace and grace alone, acting through faith. If salvation comes through a physical act or 'work', then the grace of God is made null and void. However there are scriptures commanding obedience to be baptised e.g. - "repent and be baptised everyone of you into the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of you sins and you will receive the gift of the holy Spirit” Acts 2:38
    It should be noted that this "formula" is a journey of faith expressing itself through obedience in order to fulfil the promise:

    Command = repent
    Physical acknowledgement and evidence = public full immersion baptism
    Not optional once enlightened = 'every one of you'
    The name of Jesus Christ = this is the key piece because it allows the repentee to be publicly associated with the Name of salvation (Jesus) given amongst men by which we may be saved.
    Gift = Holy Spirit: regeneration is spiritual and is a "gift" i.e. FREE.
  13. England
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    08 Jan '11 11:02
    to me baptism is a earthly entry into the christian faith, but blessed is the person baptised with the spirit no matter which faith
  14. Hy-Brasil
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    08 Jan '11 15:18
    Originally posted by Doward
    virtually all Christian denominations decalre baptism as a necessary rite for salvation. I would like to pose this scenerio for your consideration:

    A man, 28 yeras old, grew up in a non-religous home. He was never baptized, nor had much interest in faith. An event in his life triggers a search for "greater truth" leading him to accept Christ as his savior ...[text shortened]... ernal damnation? If yes, then why do we baptize? If no, what significance is there in baptism?
    virtually all Christian denominations decalre baptism as a necessary rite for salvation. -Doward


    This is untrue. I know of no Christian denomination that declares baptism is necessary for salvation. If there are any that do, the are clearly wrong. "The thief on the cross" clearly demonstrates this.

    Baptism is a act of obedience and a public declaration of your faith.

    divegeester and stoker explained it quite well.
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    08 Jan '11 21:10
    Originally posted by utherpendragon
    virtually all Christian denominations decalre baptism as a necessary rite for salvation. -Doward


    This is untrue. I know of no Christian denomination that declares baptism is necessary for salvation. If there are any that do, the are clearly wrong. "The thief on the cross" clearly demonstrates this.

    Baptism is a act of obedience and a public declaration of your faith.

    divegeester and stoker explained it quite well.
    I know of no Christian denomination that declares baptism is necessary for salvation.

    The Catholic Church and Orthodox Church both teach the necessity of baptism. As I explained earlier, however, baptism need not be a ritual of water -- martyrdom and the desire for baptism would both confer the effects of sacramental baptism.
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