1. Standard memberEAPOE
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    02 Dec '06 04:30
    Why is it that there are a large number of spieces on earth that can only maintain their own existence through the avoidence of being killed for food and at the same time having to kill and eat to survive.

    Anyone who has seen a coral reef will marvel at its beauty. . At the same time they will witness a very delicate dynamic that relvoves around the avoidance of being consumed in the pursuit of food. Every life in that reef is a source of food to another life.

    I am no diver, spent a few hours of my life off the north coast of Indoneasia. All I can say about the seen I witnessed below the waves accross the reef is this. A DYNAMIC CONFLICT FOR SURVIVAL. Eat or be eaten. Where is the beauty in this colourful environment?

    There is no beauty, it has no place.

    Why would an all forgiving loving God create a situation on this planet by which the only way one spieces could survive is through the killing and eating of another, at the same time have to endure the stress of avoiding being killed and eaten itself.

    Why did God not define creatures that were able to absorb all the nutrition they need directly from the earth, without the hideous necessity to have to kill for survival.

    If the Dynamic on this planet was conceived and created by a being far beyond our understanding I can only see this being as being uncaring and twisted in its ideas.

    There is no beautiful balance in nature. It is one of struggle for survival over death through every moment in live. How beautiful is that????
  2. Standard memberEAPOE
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    02 Dec '06 05:24
    Originally posted by EAPOE
    Why is it that there are a large number of spieces on earth that can only maintain their own existence through the avoidence of being killed for food and at the same time having to kill and eat to survive.

    Anyone who has seen a coral reef will marvel at its beauty. . At the same time they will witness a very delicate dynamic that relvoves around the avoida ...[text shortened]... one of struggle for survival over death through every moment in live. How beautiful is that????
    Some input would be nice. . .
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    02 Dec '06 05:311 edit
    Originally posted by EAPOE
    Why is it that there are a large number of spieces on earth that can only maintain their own existence through the avoidence of being killed for food and at the same time having to kill and eat to survive.

    Anyone who has seen a coral reef will marvel at its beauty. . At the same time they will witness a very delicate dynamic that relvoves around the avoida ...[text shortened]... one of struggle for survival over death through every moment in live. How beautiful is that????
    A popular notion espoused by theologians is what is called a "kenotic God". This originates from the Greek word "kenosis" used in Philippians 2: 6-8 describing how Jesus "emptied" himself of his divinity to become human. This theology was later expanded to include the whole of God who empties his ominpresence and constrains his omnipotence. This is reminiscent of the Kabbalist sense of "Tzimtzum" (meaning "contraction".) where God "contracted" his inifinitude; stepping back from creation in order to allow creation to have its own space. The evolutionary process, and the need to kill for survival are an expression of God's humility over creation permitting to develop independent of Him.

    Another explanation used to reconcile the idea of a benign, loving God with the immense suffering on this planet is the aphorism, "God writes straight with crooked lines"; that what we perceive to be imperfection is in fact, in context with the scope of the universe's existence, a perfection that at this moment is incomprehensible. If you visit a hospital you might witness people in terrible agony; however, you may also find a loving and supporting family surrounding them. A friend of mine's mother died of brain cancer but during the course of the illness his brother stopped work to care for her. Her suffering allowed for her son to demonstrate qualities of goodness that he wasn't even aware he ever had. So the suffering that occured in this instance was in way justified (not that I recommend we intentionally cause suffering, or else, facilitate it) by the inspiration that her son gave in nursing her. Perhaps the same is applicable at the coral reef.

    Or even yet, why do you feel the need to anthropomorphize a coral reef? Who's to say that they experience pain in a sentient way? It's just fish!
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    02 Dec '06 05:33
    Originally posted by EAPOE
    Why is it that there are a large number of spieces on earth that can only maintain their own existence through the avoidence of being killed for food and at the same time having to kill and eat to survive.

    Anyone who has seen a coral reef will marvel at its beauty. . At the same time they will witness a very delicate dynamic that relvoves around the avoida ...[text shortened]... one of struggle for survival over death through every moment in live. How beautiful is that????
    well, thats nature for ya.
  5. Standard memberEAPOE
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    02 Dec '06 05:48
    Or even yet, why do you feel the need to anthropomorphize a coral reef? Who's to say that they experience pain in a sentient way? It's just fish![/b]
    I did not draw any conclusions about the worthiness of life or that some spieces are "just" fish.

    There is a growing field of thought now that are starting to realise that humans do not have the most sophisticated or developed brains on earth. The Fin whale has a brain in mass much larger than the human. . . . . And following the most recent strands of neurological research it seems they have a much more developed ability for the sense of emotion, pain, vulnerability and alturism in other creatures (includinging us). How much time do we spend exulting ourselves on information and ideas from history. . . .
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    02 Dec '06 06:01
    Originally posted by EAPOE
    I did not draw any conclusions about the worthiness of life or that some spieces are "just" fish.

    There is a growing field of thought now that are starting to realise that humans do not have the most sophisticated or developed brains on earth. The Fin whale has a brain in mass much larger than the human. . . . . And following the most recent strands of neu ...[text shortened]... s). How much time do we spend exulting ourselves on information and ideas from history. . . .
    I did not draw any conclusions about the worthiness of life or that some spieces are "just" fish.

    I'm not suggesting you were. What you seemed to do was insinuate that fish had the same capacity as humans' to feel emotion (if at all).

    There is a growing field of thought now that are starting to realise that humans do not have the most sophisticated or developed brains on earth. The Fin whale has a brain in mass much larger than the human. . . . . And following the most recent strands of neurological research it seems they have a much more developed ability for the sense of emotion, pain, vulnerability and alturism in other creatures (includinging us). How much time do we spend exulting ourselves on information and ideas from history. . . .

    I would be cautious in coming to the conclusion that they have "more" sense of "emotion, pain, vulnerability and alturism". And I think, though I could be wrong, that the sophistication of the animal correlates more closely with the density of convolution on the surface of the brain and the number of connection made between nerve cells rather than the actual size of the brain.
  7. Standard memberEAPOE
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    02 Dec '06 06:11
    Originally posted by Conrau K
    [b]I did not draw any conclusions about the worthiness of life or that some spieces are "just" fish.

    I'm not suggesting you were. What you seemed to do was insinuate that fish had the same capacity as humans' to feel emotion (if at all).

    There is a growing field of thought now that are starting to realise that humans do not have the most soph ...[text shortened]... number of connection made between nerve cells rather than the actual size of the brain.
    I completely agree with you. . . The complexity in mind surely must come from its conectitvity. The "Network" having as is most dense cluster (human)100,000 conections steming from an individual neuron is staggering.

    10 to 100 billion neurons conected with between 1000 and 100,000 connections between individual neurons is food for thought. But does a clustered network, a physical defined space that is our minds give any spce for free thinking?

    My mind is as hard wierd as the next. Can we make a free or random choice?
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    02 Dec '06 06:16
    Originally posted by EAPOE

    My mind is as hard wierd as the next. Can we make a free or random choice?
    But does a clustered network, a physical defined space that is our minds give any spce for free thinking?

    I'm not sure what "free thinking" is.

    My mind is as hard wierd as the next. Can we make a free or random choice?

    Depends on what we define as free. I am free to type or not type this post, even though I probably will. I think that if we accept that the brain is solely responsible for our actions we are resigned to a determinist view of our actions. But if we define "free" based on external condition, i.e if X acts on me, I can't be free, then I would say that we are still free.
  9. Standard memberEAPOE
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    02 Dec '06 06:42
    Originally posted by Conrau K
    [b]But does a clustered network, a physical defined space that is our minds give any spce for free thinking?

    I'm not sure what "free thinking" is.

    My mind is as hard wierd as the next. Can we make a free or random choice?

    Depends on what we define as free. I am free to type or not type this post, even though I probably will. I t ...[text shortened]... condition, i.e if X acts on me, I can't be free, then I would say that we are still free.[/b]
    Is a very difficult question. We are limited, I cannot choose to live and not breath. I cannot choose to live and not eat. I cannot choose to to have a stable mind without hman contact.. . . We know these are obvious constraints on our ability to make choices?

    Can I choose a random number?

    I could say 55 because that number just came into my mind. However I am not aware of the process that passed to generate that number.

    The only reason I am aware of the idea of random choice is through maths. A model to simplify for example the rolling of a dice.

    A totally causational event with equal probability of any one number occurring.

    My mind surely cannot have any idea of this when it chooses the number 55. Unconciously it does not know the concept of randomness.
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    02 Dec '06 13:273 edits
    There is no beautiful balance in nature. It is one of struggle for survival over death through every moment in live. How beautiful is that????
    Have you ever read Genesis (say the first six chapters)? Have you read Romans chapter 8 in the New Testament?

    Have you ever read Isaiah chapter 11?
  11. Standard memberknightmeister
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    02 Dec '06 15:17
    Originally posted by EAPOE
    Why is it that there are a large number of spieces on earth that can only maintain their own existence through the avoidence of being killed for food and at the same time having to kill and eat to survive.

    Anyone who has seen a coral reef will marvel at its beauty. . At the same time they will witness a very delicate dynamic that relvoves around the avoida ...[text shortened]... one of struggle for survival over death through every moment in live. How beautiful is that????
    This is a very good question and to me often one overlooked by Atheists. As a Christian the brutality of nature and and evolution is something quite cold and harsh and out of step with God's nature. The only sane idea I heard about this once was that somehow God needs to "let go" of creation in order to allow for free will and freedom of thought. The evolutionary process, although harsh , is somehow necessary to allow for the kind of freedom that God wants in that nature becomes undirected and not controlled and finds it's own way. It's a means to an end in effect.
    I am aware that this is not a full or satisfactory answer though. The only other thing I can offer is that ultimately God has promised redemption for all of creation and that suffering will end someday and we will all understand why things had to be the way they were. The fact that God has willing chosen to enter into creation itself in Jesus and in the process enter into all this suffering (evolutionary or otherwise) is significant to me. It may not be an "answer" but I must say if he hadn't done this I would be an Atheist.
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    03 Dec '06 17:35
    Originally posted by EAPOE
    Why is it that there are a large number of spieces on earth that can only maintain their own existence through the avoidence of being killed for food and at the same time having to kill and eat to survive.

    Anyone who has seen a coral reef will marvel at its beauty. . At the same time they will witness a very delicate dynamic that relvoves around the avoida ...[text shortened]... one of struggle for survival over death through every moment in live. How beautiful is that????
    Because Adam & Eve ate an apple that they shouldn´t have, or so the bible would have us believe. As a result the harsh nature of our survival, and every evil that has ever visited our world, is entirely their fault. Similar to Jar-Jar Binks in Star Wars.
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    03 Dec '06 18:55
    Consciousness my friend. The ability to know what's right and still do wrong. Our head creates our world. An all pervading consciousness exists called many names, god being the dominate one. Animals run on instincts we run on choice. See, animals run on these instincts like a shark eats a seal. The shark does not have the consciousness to say I want peace in the ocean. We Do! We can choose not to kill for food, each other, the environment, everything! But we being conscious choose the negative way of life. Every thought is a form of energy, in this world time does not exist so the energy we feel (negative or positive) is an impression from (using time as measurement) long ago. Conscious energy is so subtle and yet the most powerful force on earth. An example would be breathing. It is so subtle and the most powerful healing tool we have. Good choices and impressions are needed to fully and effectively use those tools. If (God) gave you everything you thought about. What are you thinking? Every thought creates energy. The violence and peace in this world is a culmination of Supreme Consciousness and Soul Consciousness. Remember time does not really exist. So that would mean all the good and beauty you see is a form thought of both Soul Consciousness and Supreme Consciousness. The bad in the world however is the creation of choice. Our minds...the ability to know right from wrong and still do wrong. This is getting out there, but hear me out. Because time does not exist, that means all of what we now to be reality now; past, present, and future exist at this very moment. Our everyday choices made the world a negative place. Your soul self is in infinity. All of the choices you have made are past lives and this one creates this unreality we call life. It would blow your mind to think you could change a shark into a whale. However if eliminate time and put forth the conscious power it could happen. Keep shining, Adam
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    03 Dec '06 21:20
    Originally posted by EAPOE
    Some input would be nice. . .
    Your judgments of God are based on finite suffering and no knowledge of an infinite after-life.

    Suffering ends/takes a new form at death, and then we don't know.

    Input = Pass
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    03 Dec '06 21:361 edit
    Originally posted by Orange Peel
    Your judgments of God are based on finite suffering and no knowledge of an infinite after-life.

    Suffering ends/takes a new form at death, and then we don't know.

    Input = Pass
    I would concur - suffering ends at the death of the creature. Perhaps your wonder at the beauty of the coral reef world is tainted with naivety at the actuality of life underwater. We have it easy (well, some of us, for the moment) by comparison.

    The TOE explains the advantage of getting nutrition 'pre-processed' if you like, I'm not sure the bible addresses these advantages directly.
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