1. Joined
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    16 Jun '07 13:172 edits
    There are a lot of references to "going to heaven" in this forum. These usually represent people's ignorance of the teaching in the New Testament. It is a religious thought from the unenlightened mind that God's salvation is for people to go to heaven and live there forever.


    In this thread I will try to show how far off this notion is from the proper understanfing of salvation in the Bible.

    Who can defend that the notion of "going to heaven" to live forever is what the Bible teaches about God's salvation?

    The concept of going to heaven forever is kind of leaven added to the meal to make the Gospel more palatable to the masses.

    I welcome honest and on topic counterpoints proving to me that God wants people to "go to heaven" forever. I will contrast any false notions with what is really in the Bible about God's full salvation.
  2. Donationkirksey957
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    16 Jun '07 13:21
    Originally posted by jaywill
    There are a lot of references to "going to heaven" in this forum. These usually represent people's ignorance of the teaching in the New Testament. It is a religious thought from the unenlightened mind that God's salvation is for people to go to heaven and live there forever.


    In this thread I will try to show how far off this notion is from the pro ...[text shortened]... ontrast any false notions with what is really in the Bible about God's full salvation.
    You might enjoy reading Rwingett's sermon entry in the sermon competition thread.
  3. Joined
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    16 Jun '07 13:28
    One damnable by product of the false notion of "going to heaven" is that it undermines that the spiritual battle is over the earth. If all of God's people escape away into heaven forever the Devil will boast that he has won the victory.

    Jesus said that the meek shall inherit the earth. The battle is over the earth. Who will win the earth? Satan and his hosts are to be expelled from the earth. And the kingdom of God is to come to the earth.

    The prayer of Christ was "Thy kingdom come" not "Thy kingdom go".

    I do not say here that there is no such thing as a heaven. Surely there is heaven mentioned in the Bible. It is not mentioned as the eternal destiny of the saved.

    The victorious overcoming believers in Christ are here to take the earth. And the kingdom of God will spread across the earth. And it will so that He will would be done on earth as it is in heaven.
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    16 Jun '07 13:29
    Originally posted by kirksey957
    You might enjoy reading Rwingett's sermon entry in the sermon competition thread.
    For some reason that thread sounded like a lampoon that I didn't want to have anything to do with. Sorry.
  5. Donationkirksey957
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    16 Jun '07 13:43
    Originally posted by jaywill
    For some reason that thread sounded like a lampoon that I didn't want to have anything to do with. Sorry.
    It is hardly a "lampoon". But by all means keep thyself clean and undefiled from outside influences.
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    16 Jun '07 13:49
    Originally posted by kirksey957
    It is hardly a "lampoon". But by all means keep thyself clean and undefiled from outside influences.
    If lampoon is not a fair word I apologize.

    But it kind of reminded me of a high school "Battle of the Bands" night or a horse race.
  7. Donationkirksey957
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    16 Jun '07 13:52
    Originally posted by jaywill
    If lampoon is not a fair word I apologize.

    But it kind of reminded me of a high school "Battle of the Bands" night or a horse race.
    Well, I'm from Kentucky and horse racing is sacred.
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    16 Jun '07 14:53
    Originally posted by kirksey957
    Well, I'm from Kentucky and horse racing is sacred.
    Reverend give me a hand here.

    Does this post go best in "Sermon Competition" or "Calling Out the Faithful" or "Dick Cheney's Lesbian Daughter"?

    Where is the best place for the sacred horse race comment?
  9. Joined
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    16 Jun '07 17:474 edits
    Originally posted by jaywill
    There are a lot of references to "going to heaven" in this forum. These usually represent people's ignorance of the teaching in the New Testament. It is a religious thought from the unenlightened mind that God's salvation is for people to go to heaven and live there forever.


    In this thread I will try to show how far off this notion is from the pro ontrast any false notions with what is really in the Bible about God's full salvation.
    Nice post. I see there being two different extremes. On the one hand, many see our faith and subsequent salvation as no more than a ticket to heaven. All we can do is just continue to suffer unimaginably and just hold on for the life to come. It has notihing to do with our existence in this temperal world. On the other hand, our salvation to many is nothing more than inhancing our worldly positions in some form or fashion thus negating our eternal salvaion for a worldly temperal one. However, I say it has to do with both. Christ said that he came to give us life in the life to come as well as enhancing our current life on earth.
  10. Donationkirksey957
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    16 Jun '07 18:32
    Originally posted by jaywill
    Reverend give me a hand here.

    Does this post go best in "Sermon Competition" or "Calling Out the Faithful" or "Dick Cheney's Lesbian Daughter"?

    Where is the best place for the sacred horse race comment?
    If you're entering a sermon, put it in the sermon competition thread. If we have a new round about lesbians ( and who is to say we won't?) we'll have another thread for that.
  11. Illinois
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    16 Jun '07 19:361 edit
    Originally posted by jaywill
    There are a lot of references to "going to heaven" in this forum. These usually represent people's ignorance of the teaching in the New Testament. It is a religious thought from the unenlightened mind that God's salvation is for people to go to heaven and live there forever.


    In this thread I will try to show how far off this notion is from the pro ontrast any false notions with what is really in the Bible about God's full salvation.
    "I am the living bread that came down from heaven. Whoever eats of this bread will live for ever; and the bread that I will give for the life of the world is my flesh" (John 6:51).

    The Greek word for 'forever' is aion. It's literal translation is 'age-during', 'unbroken age', or 'eternity'. Some claim that aion refers to a definite period of time (an age) with a beginning and an end, yet through comparing usages in scripture it is clear that reading aion as 'an age' introduces various absurdities. If Christ's blood only purchases a limited period of time for the righteous, then his sacrifice is not sufficient for the forgiveness of sins. Furthermore, if the righteous (those declared as such for their faith) do not 'live forever', then those who are cast into hell do not suffer forever, and vice versa. Both absurdities are underscored by Matthew 25:46:

    Christ definitely means 'everlasting' and 'eternal' when He uses the word aionio, referring to a believer's inheritance here: "And they (the wicked) will go away into eternal (aionio) punishment, but the righteous will go into eternal (aionio) life" (Matthew 25:46). Notice how aionio is used to refer to both the destiny of unbelievers and the righteous. If the wicked are only punished for an “age,” then the righteous will only experience life in heaven for an age. If believers will be in heaven forever, the wicked will be punished forever.

    Obviously, since Christ's blood is more than sufficient to cover all sins, those who believe in him do not gain life in the kingdom of God temporarily, they gain it forever. If the kingdom were only gained temporarily, then hell would only be suffered temporarily, which leads to the absurdity of a common destiny for both the righteous and wicked in death.
  12. Joined
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    16 Jun '07 22:321 edit
    Originally posted by epiphinehas
    "I am the living bread that came down from heaven. Whoever eats of this bread will live [b]for ever; and the bread that I will give for the life of the world is my flesh" (John 6:51).

    The Greek word for 'forever' is aion. It's literal translation is 'age-during', 'unbroken age', or 'eternity'. Some claim that aion refers to a defin bsurdity of a common destiny for both the righteous and wicked in death.[/b]
    The issue with I am inquiring has not to do with time or duration but place and nature.

    I say the concept of going to a happy heavenly place forever is leavening the gospel.

    It is not everlasting or temporary I am talking about (primarily) but the concept of salvation as going to a physical place (ie. heaven or heavenly mansions), where happiness is, as the essential thing of New Testament salvation.
  13. Illinois
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    16 Jun '07 23:384 edits
    Originally posted by jaywill
    The issue with I am inquiring has not to do with time or duration but place and nature.

    I say the concept of going to a happy heavenly place forever is leavening the gospel.

    It is not everlasting or temporary I am talking about (primarily) but the concept of salvation as [b]going
    to a physical place (ie. heaven or heavenly mansions), where happiness is, as the essential thing of New Testament salvation.[/b]
    I agree, heaven is definitely a spiritual rather than a physical place.

    -----------------------

    "That where I am, there ye may be also" (John 14:3).

    "Heaven is my throne, and earth is my footstool" (Acts 7:49).

    "For he raised us from the dead along with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms because we are united with Christ Jesus" (Ephesians 2:6).

    "When this earthly tent we live in is taken down (that is, when we die and leave this earthly body), we will have a house in heaven, an eternal body made for us by God himself" (2 Corinthians 5:1).

    "An inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you" (1 Peter 1:4).

    "For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven" (Matthew 22:30).

    "Adam, the first man, was made from the dust of the earth, while Christ, the second man, came from heaven. Earthly people are like the earthly man, and heavenly people are like the heavenly man. Just as we are now like the earthly man, we will someday be like the heavenly man" (1 Corinthians 15:47-49).

    "And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away" (Revelation 21:4).

    -------------------------

    I don't know. Sounds like a pretty great place to me. Happy, even... 😀
  14. Joined
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    17 Jun '07 05:596 edits
    Originally posted by epiphinehas
    I agree, heaven is definitely a spiritual rather than a physical place.

    -----------------------

    "That where I am, there ye may be also" (John 14:3).

    "Heaven is my throne, and earth is my footstool" (Acts 7:49).

    "For he raised us from the dead along with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms because we are united with Christ Jes --

    I don't know. Sounds like a pretty great place to me. Happy, even... 😀
    John 14 speaks of the Lord Jesus preparing a place for us that where He is we may be also. The place is the Father's house. And the Father's house is the mystical body of Christ not heaven.

    In the second chapter Jesus said that the Jew's should not make His Father's house a den of thieves. He was speaking of the physical temple. Then He said that if they destroyed this temple He would raise it up in three days. He spoke of His body. If they destroyed Him He would rise up in three days. This was the temple of His body.

    So the Father's house would eventually be the resurrected body of Jesus. Do you follow this? The reality of the temple of God and the Father's house was the body of Jesus. He was the real dwelling place of God on the earth at that time.

    Now in chapter 14 He tells the disciples that in His Father's house there are many abodes. And He goes to prepare a place for the disciples in the Father's house that where He is they also may be.

    This going away to prepare a place for the disciples in the Father's house is His going away into death on the cross. And His coming again to receive the disciples is His resurrection to receive the disciples into the mystical Body of Christ. He died and rose and received the disciples into the Body of Christ as the enlarged Father's house.

    Jesus went away to the cross and died to prepare a place for us by means of redemption. This passage does not mean that He is in heaven fixing up the Father's house of many heavenly mansions for over 2000 years.

    The preparation to receive us was accomplished in His redemptive death and His victorious resurrection.

    In His Father's house, He says, are many abodes which He goes to prepare for us. Then the singular tense of the same word is used in verse 14. There He says that He and the Father will come to His lover and make an abode with His disciple.

    The many abodes in the Father's house is therefore the many living members of the mystical Body of Christ. Each member is a redeemed person within whom the Son with the Father have come to make an abode. Together all of the redeemed are the living abodes of the Father's house.

    The bottom line is that the destination of the believers in John 14 is not heaven. It is the enlarged mystical Body of the resurrected Son of God as the mutual dwelling place of God and man. Christ is enlarged. Christ is made corporate. Christ is made a collective. This is now His Father's house as the resurrected Body Christ.
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    18 Jun '07 15:221 edit
    I said,

    This going away to prepare a place for the disciples in the Father's house is His going away into death on the cross. And His coming again to receive the disciples is His resurrection to receive the disciples into the mystical Body of Christ. He died and rose and received the disciples into the Body of Christ as the enlarged Father's house.


    One of the main passages which is used to prove "going to heaven" turns out to be very badly misinterpreted. The Father's house is the mystical Body of Christ.

    Put another way: The eternal purpose of God involves a going. But it is not a "going" in the physical sense of going up to a place in heaven forever.

    It is an "organic" transformation involving the dispensing of God's life into man so that man and God become mingled together in perfect union - two lives interwoven and interpenetrating one another.

    It is simple really. It is this truth multiplied many millions of times:

    "He who is joined to the Lord is one spirit" (1 Cor. 6:17)

    We the saved, are "going" into a joining of man and the Triune God.
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