05 Dec 21
@kellyjay saidI'm not sure I think like that anymore.
I'm not sure what you mean by that truthfully. We can all be on our paths; where and why is meaningless as much as where we are truly going and will end up. If there is but one way, one path to truth, and life at the end, then any other path wouldn't be; instead, it would take everyone into error. Simply suggesting there are many paths all going to the same place is only wor ...[text shortened]... something looks real and true, reality will not be altered because we want it to be something else.
It wouldn't matter to me if all the Bible stories were true. The stories don't inspire me. They don't instill meaning for me. They don't make sense.
It's very cliche to say 'only truth matters'. I'm not so sure. Maybe we should start second-guessing some of our cliches.
@bigdogg saidI think we spend a lot of time concerning ourselves with the delivery of some messages, more so than the truth in them. We can have very charismatic people promote whatever they are pushing, be it political, religious, or even scientific, but no matter how wonderful the message is, only the truth should matter. What is true should be the goal, truth over untruth, is it consistent, does it contradict itself, can we live in the manner presented? If it doesn't make sense, why, because it is right and we are wrong, or we are right, and the message is wrong? I believe the crowd is not the place to look; those who want to be accepted by everyone will be willing to do anything or accept anything just to be accepted by the rest of the crowd.
I'm not sure I think like that anymore.
It wouldn't matter to me if all the Bible stories were true. The stories don't inspire me. They don't instill meaning for me. They don't make sense.
It's very cliche to say 'only truth matters'. I'm not so sure. Maybe we should start second-guessing some of our cliches.
05 Dec 21
@kellyjay saidThe trouble with questions such as "is there a God?" is that our truth-seeking tools are very limited.
I think we spend a lot of time concerning ourselves with the delivery of some messages, more so than the truth in them. We can have very charismatic people promote whatever they are pushing, be it political, religious, or even scientific, but no matter how wonderful the message is, only the truth should matter. What is true should be the goal, truth over untruth, is it consi ...[text shortened]... yone will be willing to do anything or accept anything just to be accepted by the rest of the crowd.
This is obvious by the vast disagreements on the topic, even amongst highly intelligent people who have put in years of work on the matter.
The reality is that reasonable people will differ on the answer to the question, and it is very difficult to prove your own belief to another person.
In the meantime, what shall we do with ourselves?
I propose that it is more important to find a spiritual path that works for one's own needs, and stop worrying so much about others doing it differently from us.
05 Dec 21
@bigdogg saidI think C.S. Lewis said something along these lines when we are thirsty; it shouldn't surprise us in this universe; some things quench our thirst. Our needs are always met by something that we need, to need with no corresponding way to fulfill it would be without reason or cause. We hunger and can eat food to quench it.
The trouble with questions such as "is there a God?" is that our truth-seeking tools are very limited.
This is obvious by the vast disagreements on the topic, even amongst highly intelligent people who have put in years of work on the matter.
The reality is that reasonable people will differ on the answer to the question, and it is very difficult to prove your own belie ...[text shortened]... that works for one's own needs, and stop worrying so much about others doing it differently from us.
I remember an old cartoon "Rocky and Bullwinkle" where Rocky saw Bullwinkle looking around in the ceiling lights for something. Rocky asked Bullwinkle what he was looking for in the lights. Response for something he lost. Rocky asked; you lost it up here. Bullwinkle responded, no, but it's easier to see things in the lights. I think finding God is to be serious about it, not haphazardly about it as a curiosity piece of trivia.
I again can give reasons for my faith; that doesn't mean it would prove anything to anyone else. Two people can look at the same data and have two completely different responses to the same data. So are our beliefs reasonable, that is, an eye of the beholder type of thing? Are they consistent and do not have gaping holes or contradictions in them? It doesn't matter if they make us happy; people can get happiness doing some hideous things to others. Can we all live in these beliefs and not destroy one another? Are our views consistent in life?
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05 Dec 21
@bigdogg saidThank you, @BigDogg. That sounds reasonable to me.
The trouble with questions such as "is there a God?" is that our truth-seeking tools are very limited.
This is obvious by the vast disagreements on the topic, even amongst highly intelligent people who have put in years of work on the matter.
The reality is that reasonable people will differ on the answer to the question, and it is very difficult to prove your own belie ...[text shortened]... that works for one's own needs, and stop worrying so much about others doing it differently from us.
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05 Dec 21
@bigdogg saidFWIW, this goes against what Jesus Christ told His followers, what became known as the Great Commission.
The trouble with questions such as "is there a God?" is that our truth-seeking tools are very limited.
This is obvious by the vast disagreements on the topic, even amongst highly intelligent people who have put in years of work on the matter.
The reality is that reasonable people will differ on the answer to the question, and it is very difficult to prove your own belie ...[text shortened]... that works for one's own needs, and stop worrying so much about others doing it differently from us.
06 Dec 21
@kellyjay saidIt's important to make a distinction between belief and practice.
I think C.S. Lewis said something along these lines when we are thirsty; it shouldn't surprise us in this universe; some things quench our thirst. Our needs are always met by something that we need, to need with no corresponding way to fulfill it would be without reason or cause. We hunger and can eat food to quench it.
I remember an old cartoon "Rocky and Bullwinkle" whe ...[text shortened]... ers. Can we all live in these beliefs and not destroy one another? Are our views consistent in life?
Belief is not something I can simply change by choice. I became convinced of my beliefs through things like experience, reasoning, evidence, etc. Once convinced, I'm stuck with that belief until new evidence convinced me otherwise.
So yeah, my beliefs aren't guaranteed to make me happy.
However, my spiritual PRACTICE is entirely my choice. I focus my attention on things that imbue my life with meaning, and help me make sense of the world.
06 Dec 21
@pb1022 saidYeah. That's what I don't like about evangelism.
FWIW, this goes against what Jesus Christ told His followers, what became known as the Great Commission.
I can see spreading a message to those who are open to hear it. But why would you bother someone who doesn't want to hear it? Does the Great Commission require THAT?
06 Dec 21
@bigdogg saidBelief and practice, in my opinion, is just another way of saying we walk out our faith. Faith is simply that which we trust to be true, and I don't think anyone is exempt from this; no one walks in this life without believing they have a handle on the universe as they think it to be. Even those that declare they have evidence for the things they think are true are trusting in their interpretation of the evidence.
It's important to make a distinction between belief and practice.
Belief is not something I can simply change by choice. I became convinced of my beliefs through things like experience, reasoning, evidence, etc. Once convinced, I'm stuck with that belief until new evidence convinced me otherwise.
So yeah, my beliefs aren't guaranteed to make me happy.
However, my spi ...[text shortened]... I focus my attention on things that imbue my life with meaning, and help me make sense of the world.
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06 Dec 21
@bigdogg saidI don’t think it gets that specific, but I agree with you. If somebody tells me they’re not interested, I respect that and don’t continue as though I didn’t hear them.
Yeah. That's what I don't like about evangelism.
I can see spreading a message to those who are open to hear it. But why would you bother someone who doesn't want to hear it? Does the Great Commission require THAT?
One fault I think some evangelists have is thinking they’re the only ones who can lead someone to a saving knowledge of Jesus Christ.
God has an infinite number of ways to lead someone to Christ. You know how he led me?
I was feeling pretty dejected and went into a bookstore to buy a chess book to cheer me up. As I was trying to find the chess section (the book store had moved it since the last time I was there) I passed a display of Bibles, and one of the Bibles at eye level was the King James Version with the chess symbol for a king on its cover.
I picked it up, figured I ought to read the Bible since I never had, and read it. Then I looked into evidence for the Resurrection of Jesus Christ.
God used my love of chess to lead me to Christ. If God wants someone to know the truth about Jesus Christ, He’ll find a way.
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06 Dec 21
1 edit
Just a notion from an outsider, but I have the impression that some people stick their noses into the Bible and pore over Scriptures because they are afraid to look God in the face and be annihiliated, or to allow Christ in, or to allow the Holy Spirit to do its transformative work.
Do you know God ?
Before you answer, the question is not - "Do you know about God?"
The question is Do you know God ?
If you turn the question to me I would say I know God.
Don't get me wrong though. I know some things about God without knowing God Himself. However, I would be lying is I said I do not know God Himself.
My knowing of God really has to grow and deepen and expand. But I have no problem telling anyone that I know God.
Look here how a man is given a new life by being regenerated by the living word of God.
"Having been regenerated by the living and abiding word of God" (1 Peter 1:22)
And the living abiding word of God conveys the resurrected Christ as the Spirit of Christ into a man's being.
" . . . according to His great power has regenerated us unto a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead." (1 Pet. 1:3)
The living and aboding word of God causes a man to receive Christ as a new life.
The resurrection of Christ causes a man to receive Christ as a new life.
I touch God Himself in the word of God.
The words Christ spoke are spirit and truth.
And the word is "the living and abiding word of God" through which I received regeneration. That means I was born anew. That means in addition to the natural life I was born with, the living and abiding word of God compounded into me a new life - a divine life of Jesus Christ.
So I know God because the Lord Jesus Christ IS God. And being regenerated made Jesus Christ unite with my human spirit.
"He who is joined to the Lord is one spirit" (1 Cor. 6:17)
When one is joined to Jesus Christ the Lord in his spirit, he can definitely know God.
06 Dec 21
2 edits
@sonship saidYou are rambling all over the place and missing the point and your post fails to hit the nail squarely on the head as Jesus and all the Apostles did.
@Kevin-Eleven
Just a notion from an outsider, but I have the impression that some people stick their noses into the Bible and pore over Scriptures because they are afraid to look God in the face and be annihiliated, or to allow Christ in, or to allow the Holy Spirit to do its transformative work.
Do you know God ?
Before you answer, the question ...[text shortened]... ]
When one is joined to Jesus Christ the Lord in his spirit, he can definitely know God.
Those who keep the commandments know God, and God knows them, and abides with them: John said : And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. (1 John 2:3-4 KJV)
You claim to know God. Do you tell people and preach that people must keep the commandments otherwise their claim to know God is a lie ?
I have never seen you do that.
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06 Dec 21
5 edits
@Rajk999
You are against the subjective truths of the word of God.
You know nothing about the indwelling of the living God and oppose subjective experience of Christ and the subjective realities taught in the Bible.
As far as I can see Keven Eleven's OP was mostly suppose to shame people who find God in His word.
Confessing Jesus as your Lord is the beginning of Him humbling one and breaking down to old corrupted self that the new man may be exalted, rising up in transformation.
Anyone refusing to own Jesus as Lord has no idea of being humbled in any way. And no one can say Jesus is Lord except in the Holy Spirit.
To receive the Lord Jesus is to receive the treasure in earthen vessels. Anyone without the treasure has ONLY the outward earthen vessel as his boast and hope. No talk of it being put down or humbled in any way is reliable.
"But we have this treasure in earthen vessels that the excellency of the power may be of God and not out of us." ( 2 Cor. 4:7)
One who has not received the treasure of the resurrected Christ into his being has no experience to speak of the humbling of himself. His ego is still enthroned as the center of everything. The "treasure" is still the self, regardless of how he can point out faults of other people. Reaching for the speck in other's eye the beam in one's own eye is neglected. Too proud to confess Jesus is the Lord.
Ie
Just a notion from an outsider, but I have the impression that some people stick their noses into the Bible and pore over Scriptures because they are afraid to look God in the face and be annihiliated, or to allow Christ in, or to allow the Holy Spirit to do its transformative work.
In some cases it seems that Bible study and commentary are egocentric forms of performative Christianity, because the ego is not quite ready to give up and hand itself over.
In between zany flighted headed talk about channeling superior beings from other planets the self has not undergone the initial blow even of confessing the Lord is Jesus Christ.
"Humble yourselves therefore under the mighty hand of God, that He may exalt you in due time." (First Peter 5:6).
07 Dec 21
@bigdogg saidIf you accept the whole thing as true, wouldn't you want it shared because there are two places in the end? How could anyone accept that and not want to warn someone? How also could you believe the love expressed towards us and not want others to experience it as well?
Yeah. That's what I don't like about evangelism.
I can see spreading a message to those who are open to hear it. But why would you bother someone who doesn't want to hear it? Does the Great Commission require THAT?