Originally posted by RJHinds
So you believe that these legends were NOT based on a real person?
If you believe Jesus never existed then you were being "dishonest"
from the beginning and there was no need for jaywill to discuss the
matter with you at all. You have wasted all our time with your
"D I S H O N E S T Y"

Dasa would agree, I'm sure.

VoidSpirit is tough and challenging. But it is not a waste of my time. These things can take years. I remember when I argued. I remember not understanding. And I am willing to a point to let some unbelieving skeptical person read what I explain.

And I pray and hope that God will have mercy and open his eyes to see revelation.

Paul's teaching to Timothy - "But a slave of the Lord ought not to contend but be gentle toward all, apt to teach, bearing with wrong; In meekness correcting those who oppose, if perhaps God may give them repentance unto the full knowledge of the truth ...." (2 Timothy 2:24,25)

Even the biggest opposer can one day receive mercy to turn and become a follower of Jesus. Paul said that God set him up as a pattern of the patience and mercy of God:

"I give thanks to Him who empowers me, Christ Jesus our Lord, that He has counted me faithful, appointing me to the ministry,

Who formerly was a blasphemer and a persecutor and an insulting person; but I was shown mercy because, being ignorant, I acted in unbelief.

... I was shown mercy, that in me, the foremost, Jesus Christ might display all His long-suffering for a pattern to those who are to believe on Him unto eternal life." (1 Tim. 1:12-16)

Paul says that he, the former blasphemer, persecutor, insulting and ignorant opposer was set by God as a pattern. God can reach the one we think cannot be reached.

If Jesus can turn Saul of Tarsus, obsessed with destroying the Christian church, He can reach anyone. As long as they are alive there is a hope.

How much we can share depends on the amount of grace we have. There is no legality:

"If possible, as far as it depends on you, live in peace with all men." (Romans 12:18)

Originally posted by Doward
Is 53:5 But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon him, and by his wounds we are healed.



BOOYAH! game, set, match! the problem with your entire argument is you reeeealllly don't know what's in the bible, you only know what you've read from people who desperately wish they could discredit the bible

49:3 And said unto me, Thou [art] my servant, O Israel, in whom I will be glorified.

when you take things out of context, any false claim can be made.

the servant is israel, the context of it does not change in the following chapters. add to that the fact that jesus didn't accomplish a single messianic prophecy, and it is game, set, match. in my favor.

Originally posted by RJHinds
So you believe that these legends were NOT based on a real person?
If you believe Jesus never existed then you were being "dishonest"
from the beginning and there was no need for jaywill to discuss the
matter with you at all. You have wasted all our time with your
"D I S H O N E S T Y"

Dasa would agree, I'm sure.

i have no such beliefs either way. the character of jesus may have existed and the legends may be based on a real person.

in the same way, the character of heracles may have existed and the legends may be based on a real person.

but i'm glad you're following along. and dasa tends to run and hide when my presence approaches. at least you and jay have the temerity to face challenges to your beliefs.

Originally posted by VoidSpirit
49:3 And said unto me, Thou [art] my servant, O Israel, in whom I will be glorified.

when you take things out of context, any false claim can be made.

the servant is israel, the context of it does not change in the following chapters. add to that the fact that jesus didn't accomplish a single messianic prophecy, and it is game, set, match. in my favor.

Matthew 22:41-45 NASB

Now while the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them a question:
“What do you think about the Christ, whose son is He?” They said to Him,
“The son of David.” He said to them, “Then how does David in the Spirit call
Him ‘Lord,’ saying,

‘THE LORD SAID TO MY LORD,
“SIT AT MY RIGHT HAND,
UNTIL I PUT YOUR ENEMIES BENEATH YOUR FEET”’?

If David then calls Him ‘Lord,’ how is He his son?” No one was able to answer
Him a word, nor did anyone dare from that day on to ask Him another question.

Originally posted by RJHinds
Matthew 22:41-45 NASB

Now while the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them a question:
“What do you think about the Christ, whose son is He?” They said to Him,
“The son of David.” He said to them, “Then how does David in the Spirit call
Him ‘Lord,’ saying,

‘THE LORD SAID TO MY LORD,
“SIT AT MY RIGHT HAND,
UNTIL I PUT YOUR ENEMIES ...[text shortened]... as able to answer
Him a word, nor did anyone dare from that day on to ask Him another question.

it's quiet possible that this conversation never happened, but supposing that it did, how does quoting a mistranslated psalm prove jesus is the messiah?

you're still left with all the unfulfilled messianic prophecies.

Originally posted by VoidSpirit
49:3 And said unto me, Thou [art] my servant, O Israel, in whom I will be glorified.

when you take things out of context, any false claim can be made.

the servant is israel, the context of it does not change in the following chapters. add to that the fact that jesus didn't accomplish a single messianic prophecy, and it is game, set, match. in my favor.

Fail!; try reading Matthew Henry's commentary: http://www.christnotes.org/commentary.php?b=23&c=53&com=mhc

or read any other number of commentary's. They all agree that Is. 53 is about the suffering messiah.


*ahem* I await you admission that I am correct followed by an apology....

Originally posted by VoidSpirit
it's quiet possible that this conversation never happened, but supposing that it did, how does quoting a mistranslated psalm prove jesus is the messiah?

you're still left with all the unfulfilled messianic prophecies.

Since you say the psalm is mistranslated, how do you think it should
be translated? Don't forget that the quotes are from the Greek Septuagint
translation of the scriptures and not from the Hebrew.

Originally posted by Doward
Fail!; try reading Matthew Henry's commentary: http://www.christnotes.org/commentary.php?b=23&c=53&com=mhc

or read any other number of commentary's. They all agree that Is. 53 is about the suffering messiah.


*ahem* I await you admission that I am correct followed by an apology....

He probably read, "The suffering Servant in Deutero-Isaiah" by C.R. North,
a British writer who denies Isaiah 53 makes any reference to Jesus and
therefore is not predicting anything in relation to him. As you say, the
majority believe as you state like Matthew Henry.

Originally posted by VoidSpirit
49:3 And said unto me, Thou [art] my servant, O Israel, in whom I will be glorified.

when you take things out of context, any false claim can be made.

the servant is israel, the context of it does not change in the following chapters. add to that the fact that jesus didn't accomplish a single messianic prophecy, and it is game, set, match. in my favor.

It seems that Philip disagrees with you. When asked by the Ethiopian to
explain a passage he was reading in Isaiah, Philip began with Isaiah 53:7
and preached Jesus to him.

But an angel of the Lord spoke to Philip saying, “Get up and go south to the
road that descends from Jerusalem to Gaza.” (This is a desert road.) So he
got up and went; and there was an Ethiopian eunuch, a court official of
Candace, queen of the Ethiopians, who was in charge of all her treasure; and
he had come to Jerusalem to worship, and he was returning and sitting in his
chariot, and was reading the prophet Isaiah. Then the Spirit said to Philip,
“Go up and join this chariot.” Philip ran up and heard him reading Isaiah the
prophet, and said, “Do you understand what you are reading?” And he said,
“Well, how could I, unless someone guides me?” And he invited Philip to come
up and sit with him. Now the passage of Scripture which he was reading was
this:

“HE WAS LED AS A SHEEP TO SLAUGHTER;
AND AS A LAMB BEFORE ITS SHEARER IS SILENT,
SO HE DOES NOT OPEN HIS MOUTH.
IN HUMILIATION HIS JUDGMENT WAS TAKEN AWAY;
WHO WILL RELATE HIS GENERATION?
FOR HIS LIFE IS REMOVED FROM THE EARTH.”

The eunuch answered Philip and said, “Please tell me, of whom does the
prophet say this? Of himself or of someone else?” Then Philip opened his
mouth, and beginning from this Scripture he preached Jesus to him.

ACTS 8:26-35 NASB

Also the Gospel of John 12:38-40 makes reference to Isaiah 53 as referrring
to Jesus. And the apostle Paul quotes from Isaiah 53:1, 54:4-5, Joel 2:32 in
reference to his preaching about Jesus. (Romans 10:11-16)

Do you think they knew anything about Isaiah 53, huh?
Who is the Redeemer? (Isaiah 54:5)

Originally posted by RJHinds
It seems that Philip disagrees with you. When asked by the Ethiopian to
explain a passage he was reading in Isaiah, Philip began with Isaiah 53:7
and preached Jesus to him.

But an angel of the Lord spoke to Philip saying, “Get up and go south to the
road that descends from Jerusalem to Gaza.” (This is a desert road.) So he
got up and went; and the ...[text shortened]... 16)

Do you think they knew anything about Isaiah 53, huh?
Who is the Redeemer? (Isaiah 54:5)

i don't care what philip thought. the suffering servent of isaiah is israel. isaiah says so.

Do you think they knew anything about Isaiah 53, huh?

not much from the looks of it.

Who is the Redeemer? (Isaiah 54:5)

the redeemer in 54:5 is the biblegod, not the messiah.

and yet you're still left with a failed messiah who didn't accomplish a single messianic task.

Originally posted by Doward
Fail!; try reading Matthew Henry's commentary: http://www.christnotes.org/commentary.php?b=23&c=53&com=mhc

or read any other number of commentary's. They all agree that Is. 53 is about the suffering messiah.


*ahem* I await you admission that I am correct followed by an apology....

hehehe. hohoho. imagine that, christian commentators agree that the suffering servant is jesus. who would've thought?

i'll stick with what isaiah says. thanks anyways.

Originally posted by RJHinds
Since you say the psalm is mistranslated, how do you think it should
be translated? Don't forget that the quotes are from the Greek Septuagint
translation of the scriptures and not from the Hebrew.

you can do the research no that yourself if you're dedicated. it doesn't effect my argument either way. you still haven't answered how quoting the psalm proves anything?

Originally posted by VoidSpirit
you can do the research no that yourself if you're dedicated. it doesn't effect my argument either way. you still haven't answered how quoting the psalm proves anything?

Been sitting on the sidelines quietly following this debate...

But hey, whatever your opinions, logic shouldn't be thrown out of the window! 😠

You don't care what PHILIP said, you don't care what DAVID said, all that is important is what ISAIAH said? In ONE verse??

😛

Surely you see the ridiculousness of this?? 🙄

Originally posted by VoidSpirit
hehehe. hohoho. imagine that, christian commentators agree that the suffering servant is jesus. who would've thought?

i'll stick with what isaiah says. thanks anyways.

good, then we're in agreement, Jesus is the suffering Messiah.

Originally posted by VoidSpirit
i don't care what philip thought. the suffering servent of isaiah is israel. isaiah says so.

Do you think they knew anything about Isaiah 53, huh?

not much from the looks of it.

Who is the Redeemer? (Isaiah 54:5)

the redeemer in 54:5 is the biblegod, not the messiah.

and yet you're still left with a failed messiah who didn't accomplish a single messianic task.

You need to take remedial classes in Reading Comprehension.

P.S. You apparently don't care what John and Paul thinks either.
You are like the Ethiopian. You can not understand Isaiah
without someone to teach you. You think it is talking about
Israel, even the Ethiopian did not jump to that conclusion.