1. Joined
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    17 Jun '11 17:33
    I'm not talking about the authority conveyed as is the subject of the other thread. I'm referencing the doctrine that the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are all one entity. Is there anything in the Bible which is explicit on the subject?

    Jehovah's Witnesses say no, as do a few other Christian sects. I've seen obscure references, but you would think that such a central tenet of mainstream Christianity would be spelled out in clear and concise language.

    The only passage which comes close is at the beginning of one of the Gospels, reading, "in the beginning there was the Word, and the word was God," or something to that effect, but JW's and scholars have said that it's a mistranslation. I don't remember the details. And again, you would have to be familiar with other passages where Jesus says "I am the Word." But again, why isn't it spelled out clearly?

    The usual explanations are "God wants you to work for the truth," or "it's a mystery, and once you believe the truth becomes known to your heart." But both of those explanations carry implications. Is your heart really to be trusted over the explicit wording of the Bible, and since when do you have to work for grace? But I'm told that if you do not believe that Jesus is God, you cannot have grace.

    Thoughts? Other passages I'm missing?
  2. England
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    17 Jun '11 18:10
    tho im unsure exactly where it is my memory remembers jesus saying you can be forgiven for sins against the father, sins against jesus but you will not be forgiven for sins against the holy spirit. its not a acurate quote but the main thrust is there.
  3. Joined
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    17 Jun '11 18:34
    Originally posted by Kunsoo
    I'm not talking about the authority conveyed as is the subject of the other thread. I'm referencing the doctrine that the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are all one entity. Is there anything in the Bible which is explicit on the subject?

    Jehovah's Witnesses say no, as do a few other Christian sects. I've seen obscure references, but you would think that ...[text shortened]... esus is God, you cannot have grace.

    Thoughts? Other passages I'm missing?
    Actually if you go back about 4 pages here you'll see a couple really long threads on this subject. One is the "Holy Spirit" and the other "Is Jesus the same as Jehovah in the OT?" I believe is the titile.
    But to answer you very simply the Trinity was never believed by any of God's people anywhere in the Bible and that word is not in the Bible at all. Jesus never taught it and neither did any of his followers.
    It has deep pagan origins and was eventually introduced into the "Church" as well as many other pagan beliefs a few hundred years after Jesus died.
  4. Standard memberRajk999
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    17 Jun '11 19:17
    Originally posted by Kunsoo
    I'm not talking about the authority conveyed as is the subject of the other thread. I'm referencing the doctrine that the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are all one entity. Is there anything in the Bible which is explicit on the subject?

    Jehovah's Witnesses say no, as do a few other Christian sects. I've seen obscure references, but you would think that ...[text shortened]... esus is God, you cannot have grace.

    Thoughts? Other passages I'm missing?
    If you are using this "..the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are all one entity." expression to mean that they are one and the same, then there are many passages in the Bible that are contrary to that doctrine ....

    1Cor 11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.
  5. Joined
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    17 Jun '11 20:26
    Originally posted by stoker
    tho im unsure exactly where it is my memory remembers jesus saying you can be forgiven for sins against the father, sins against jesus but you will not be forgiven for sins against the holy spirit. its not a acurate quote but the main thrust is there.
    I think it was specifically, "blasphemy of the spirit" for which there is no forgiveness, but I was never clear exactly what that constituted.
  6. Joined
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    17 Jun '11 20:28
    Originally posted by galveston75
    Actually if you go back about 4 pages here you'll see a couple really long threads on this subject. One is the "Holy Spirit" and the other "Is Jesus the same as Jehovah in the OT?" I believe is the titile.
    But to answer you very simply the Trinity was never believed by any of God's people anywhere in the Bible and that word is not in the Bible at all. ...[text shortened]... o the "Church" as well as many other pagan beliefs a few hundred years after Jesus died.
    Well, yes. The Muslims regard the Trinity as polytheism and their response is "there is no god but God." Jews also regard it as polytheism.

    It is a very esoteric concept for a faith which claims to be based upon common sense realism.
  7. Joined
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    17 Jun '11 20:51
    Originally posted by Kunsoo
    I think it was specifically, "blasphemy of the spirit" for which there is no forgiveness, but I was never clear exactly what that constituted.
    So in the context of the trinity it would seem that as the scripture says you can sin against two of the three beings of this trinity and be forgiven, but sin against the holy spirit part and you can't be forgiven. So as your asking what does this mean?
    So is the holy spirit part of the trinity more important or have more power or is it just short tempered compaired to the other two?
    I'd like to hear the trinitairians explain this issue?????
  8. Standard memberRJHinds
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    17 Jun '11 21:07
    Originally posted by galveston75
    So in the context of the trinity it would seem that as the scripture says you can sin against two of the three beings of this trinity and be forgiven, but sin against the holy spirit part and you can't be forgiven. So as your asking what does this mean?
    So is the holy spirit part of the trinity more important or have more power or is it just short t ...[text shortened]... pered compaired to the other two?
    I'd like to hear the trinitairians explain this issue?????
    Check out this definition of the Trinity from wikipedia:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trinity
  9. Standard memberRajk999
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    17 Jun '11 21:18
    Originally posted by RJHinds
    Check out this definition of the Trinity from wikipedia:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trinity
    What is the Biblical definition of 'Trinity'?
  10. Joined
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    17 Jun '11 21:18
    Originally posted by Kunsoo
    I'm not talking about the authority conveyed as is the subject of the other thread. I'm referencing the doctrine that the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are all one entity. Is there anything in the Bible which is explicit on the subject?

    Jehovah's Witnesses say no, as do a few other Christian sects. I've seen obscure references, but you would think that ...[text shortened]... esus is God, you cannot have grace.

    Thoughts? Other passages I'm missing?
    What you seem to be asking is where the Bible says there is only one God. If it says this, then the trinity concept must be constructed in such a way to honor this.

    There are a tone of refernces for one God at:

    http://www.bible.ca/trinity/trinity-oneness-unity-one-god.htm

    But also see:

    http://www.bible.ca/trinity/trinity-proof-texts.htm

    Rather than repeat other threads I will not go further.
  11. Joined
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    17 Jun '11 22:10
    Originally posted by JS357
    What you seem to be asking is where the Bible says there is only one God. If it says this, then the trinity concept must be constructed in such a way to honor this.

    There are a tone of refernces for one God at:

    http://www.bible.ca/trinity/trinity-oneness-unity-one-god.htm

    But also see:

    http://www.bible.ca/trinity/trinity-proof-texts.htm

    Rather than repeat other threads I will not go further.
    Well, yes, but if it does not specify that the three are one - and we seem to agree that it does not, and it says that Jesus is a god and the Holy Ghost is a god, then that would seem to be a contradiction in which you have to twist common sense in order to make it work out.

    I was told by a devout Christian that JWs are not Christian because they do not say that Jesus is God. If that's the defining principle, you would think it would be explicit rather than having to piece it together with otherwise conflicting passages.
  12. Joined
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    17 Jun '11 22:10
    Originally posted by Rajk999
    What is the Biblical definition of 'Trinity'?
    I don't think there is one.
  13. Joined
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    17 Jun '11 22:17
    Originally posted by RJHinds
    Check out this definition of the Trinity from wikipedia:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trinity
    Boy, that "shield" diagram is confusing!
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    17 Jun '11 22:55
    Originally posted by RJHinds
    Check out this definition of the Trinity from wikipedia:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trinity
    I've read that many times and it gives mans thoughts and ideas on this mystery, not God's or the Bibles.
  15. Joined
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    18 Jun '11 00:09
    Originally posted by galveston75
    I've read that many times and it gives mans thoughts and ideas on this mystery, not God's or the Bibles.
    So what does God say about it?
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