Daniel 7:1-14 describes a dream that on the surface seems too symbolic to be of much use in prediction. However then it gets interpreted.
Daniel 7:15-16 describes Daniel being perplexed and asking for interpretation from "one of those standing there."
Daniel 7:17 again mentions four kingdoms, saying the four beasts are the four kingdoms. Daniel 7:18 says the "saints of the Most High" will receive "the kingdom" and have it forever. Which of the four kingdoms is it? The last one I guess...
Daniel 7:19-22 describes more of the dream and has no direct predictive value.
Danile 7:23 and onward seems to be where the meat of the prophecy is, if there is any. The fourth beast (with the iron teeth) is apparently the fourth kingdom. "It will be different from all other kingdoms and will devour the whole Earth." The horns represent kings of this kingdom. The little horn is an eleventh king that subdues three kings; presumably three of the preceding ten kings of the fourth kingdom. This eleventh king will "speak against the Most High and oppress his saints and try to change the set times and the laws." He will also have the saints "handed over to him for a time, times and half a time."
Daniel 7:26 talks about how "the court will sit" and how the power of the eleventh king will be taken away forever, and "the sovereignty, power and greatness of the kingdoms under the whole heavens will be handed over to the saints". Then there will be some sort of eternal kingdom.
Now, this is all very cool sounding, but how would one use this to predict anything? It seems way too vague to be useful. Despite some peoples' claims, I am not convinced that the identity of the four kingdoms has been established. Nor am I convinced about the identity of any of the eleven 'horns'.
Can anyone elaborate on how this prophecy should be read and why? Please, avoid interpretation. Predictive hypotheses aren't very useful if they require a lot of subjective interpretation.
Originally posted by DarfiusI'm lazy and a procrastinator, as my chess opponents can tell you. As this is not an urgent issue in my life, I will work on this thread when I feel like it. However I will put in some time now for you.
Get back on the horse, ATY.
Daniel 8:1-14 describes a vision that is very unclear like all the rest. Interpretation follows, but there is a piece of hard data that is interesting - a reference to 2300 evenings and mornings that will take place between two events.
Daniel 8:17 says that the vision "concerns the time of the end." The end of what?
Daniel 8:19 mentions the "time of wrath", whatever that is.
Daniel 8:20-21 says that the two horned ram represents the kings of Media and Persia, and the shaggy goat the King of Greece, with his large horn representing the first king (of Greece I take it). Wikipedia says the first king took office in 1828, and another site says the first King of Greece was Otto who was chosen in 1831.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Kings_of_Greece
http://www.magicaljourneys.com/Nafplio/nafplio-interest-history.html
Christians who believe this prophecy was true and predicted what occurred later in history claim the first King of Greece was Alexander, but that's a stretch. It's debatable whether or not Alexander was properly called King of Greece. I am unconvinced, though with further evidence I might buy it.
According to this site, Media is a name for Iran.
http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/Cyaxares
I'll tentatively accept that the Persian empire could be described as one entity of which part were the "Kings of Media and Persia". This suggests there were no other kings in that empire. Historians, is this true?
So the "King of Greece" overthrows the Persian Empire. This is not scientifically rigorous in the slightest, but it's kind of interesting. I'll look for further evidence of the prophecy's validity.
Supposedly the "King of Greece" came over "the whole earth without touching the ground". What?! Alexander couldn't fly!
Daniel 8:8-9 said that at the height of the shaggy goat's power, it's "large horn" was broken off, and in it's place "four prominant horns grew up toward the four winds of heaven." "Out of one of them came another horn, which started small but grew in power to the south and to the east and toward the Beautiful Land."
Daniel 22 says that "the four horns represent four kingdoms that will emerge from [the large horn's] nation but will not have the same power.
Wikipedia says this:
After Alexander's death his empire was divided among his officers, first mostly with the pretense of preserving a united kingdom, later with the explicit formation of rival monarchies and territorial states...Alexander's empire was divided at first into four major portions.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_the_great#Death
Well that is definitely interesting.
As I am feeling extremely lazy, I'll stop for the moment at this exciting cliffhanger!
A short entry to make sure I don't forget to finish Daniel.
First of all, a mistake in the last post; I wrote Daniel 22 when I meant of course Daniel 8:22.
So I'm hypothesizing that Daniel 8:22 talks about the four major portions Alexander's empire was first divided into.
Here's how one site translates the rest of Daniel that is prophetic:
23 At the end of their rule, when the transgressions have reached their full measure, a king of bold countenance shall arise, skilled in intrigue. 24 He shall grow strong in power, shall cause fearful destruction, and shall succeed in what he does. He shall destroy the powerful and the people of the holy ones. 25 By his cunning he shall make deceit prosper under his hand, and in his own mind he shall be great. Without warning he shall destroy many and shall even rise up against the Prince of princes. But he shall be broken, and not by human hands. 26 The vision of the evenings and the mornings that has been told is true. As for you, seal up the vision, for it refers to many days from now."
http://www.hope.edu/academic/religion/bandstra/BIBLE/DAN/DAN8.HTM
I have no idea who this is supposed to be. Anyone have any ideas?
Originally posted by AThousandYoungThe Antichrist.
A short entry to make sure I don't forget to finish Daniel.
First of all, a mistake in the last post; I wrote [b]Daniel 22 when I meant of course Daniel 8:22.
So I'm hypothesizing that Daniel 8:22 talks about the four major portions Alexander's empire was first divided into.
Here's how one site translates the rest of Dan ...[text shortened]... a/BIBLE/DAN/DAN8.HTM[/i]
I have no idea who this is supposed to be. Anyone have any ideas?
[/b]
Originally posted by DarfiusAre you suggesting that the four kingdoms originally controlled by Cassander, Lysimachus, Seleucus/Nicator, and Ptolemy I still exist as four separate kingdoms, and always have been? What about the Romans? What about how there were only three Hellenistic states by 270 B.C.?
The Antichrist.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_the_great#Death
Here's my analysis of Daniel 9:1-19.
9:1 describes a person - Darius. What do historians and archeologists know of this guy? Is he correctly decribed here?
In 9:2 there is a reference to a desolation. Again, what do we know of this desolation? Did it last 70 years as claimed?
9:11 says that "curses and sworn judgements written in the Law of Moses...have been poured out on us". What are these curses and judgements? Did they occur?
The rest (up through 9:19) seems to lack any prophetic value. It is interesting however. Jerusalem is God's name? What does Daniel 9:19 mean when it says "your city and your people bear your Name"?
Isa 44:28
28Who says of Cyrus, 'He is My shepherd, and he shall perform all My pleasure, saying to Jerusalem, "You shall be built," and to the temple, "Your foundation shall be laid."'
(NKJ)
Isaiah 44:26-45:6. Isaiah the prophet foretold that Jerusalem and the Temple would be rebuilt at the command of Cyrus. We know that Isaiah prophesied between 776-696 B.C. because Isaiah 1:1 says Isaiah lived in the time of Uzziah (who started reigning in 776 B.C.), Jotham, Ahaz, and Hezekiah (who ended his reign in 696 B.C.). Cyrus was a king of the Persian Empire, and he came to the throne in 559 B.C., almost 150 years after Isaiah died. In 538 B.C., he entered Babylon and shortly thereafter commanded that Jerusalem and the Temple be rebuilt (Ezra 1:1-4).
When Isaiah foretold the rebuilding of the Temple, it had not even been destroyed yet! It was still standing, and it continued to stand for more than 100 years after his prophecy. In 586 B.C. it was burned to the ground by Nebuchadnezzar, king of Babylon. God told Isaiah what the future had in store for the kingdom and people of Israel, and even told Isaiah that a man named “Cyrus” would command that the Temple be rebuilt. Only God can predict the future with that kind of accuracy, and the Bible is the only book ever written that contains prophecy so clear and exact. The history of the
reign of Cyrus and what he did for Israel is common knowledge and can be read in any good encyclopedia.
Originally posted by checkbaiterCan you clarify why you posted this? Is it because it's prophecy about a city, or because you're answering my questions? I don't care which it is, but I want to understand your post.
Isa 44:28
28Who says of Cyrus, 'He is My shepherd, and he shall perform all My pleasure, saying to Jerusalem, "You shall be built," and to the temple, "Your foundation shall be laid."'
(NKJ)
Isaiah 44:26-45:6. Isaiah the prophet foretold that Jerusalem and the Temple would be rebuilt at the command of Cyrus. We know that Isaiah prophesied b ...[text shortened]... f Cyrus and what he did for Israel is common knowledge and can be read in any good encyclopedia.
Originally posted by AThousandYoungWell, the topic is Biblical Prophesy - Evidence For Xtianity?
Can you clarify why you posted this? Is it because it's prophecy about a city, or because you're answering my questions? I don't care which it is, but I want to understand your post.
Cyrus was called in prophecy about 150 years before the fact. Sorry, should have clarified. Cyrus was a man.
One thing seems to be totally absent from the debate:
Are there any prophecies that didn't come true in the bible? If so it would make the ones that did come true less meaningful. How reliable is a fortune teller if they're not always right?
The debate started because evolution was shown to predict certain things that are found in reality. The reason evolution is one of the most stable things in science is because it can be said to be "vertically integrated". Different discplines all use evolutionary theory with the same accuracy. Evolution in general is compatible with all scientific theories.
For the Bible to get the same credibility as evolution it would not only have to show that it has made predictions (arguing over the merit of the prediction is another story...) but different disciplines would have to measure their findings against the contents of the bible.
For example, Tell me how the bible can explain human psychology?