Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
Just as you can continue to place the teachings of Paul and others above those of Jesus. As a consequence of this, you embrace twisted and barbaric thinking found in superstition.

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Just as you can continue to place the teachings of Paul and others above those of Jesus. As a consequence of this, you embrace twisted and barbaric thinking found in superstition.
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You should not put your hope in this belief, that the apostles of Christ perverted the teaching of Christ. Especially you should not hope that such a case can be made with Paul.

The earliest record we have of what the Christian church taught is from the letters of Paul. And what Paul taught he received from those who went before him. He tells us this:

"For I delivered to you, first of all, that which also I received ..." (1 cor. 15:3)

He did not invent the message himself. He "received" it. And even your skpetical New Testament scholars agree that this Corinthian letter is representative of early Christian teaching.

"For I delivered to you, first of all, that which also I received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures; And that He was buried, and that He has been raised on the third day according to the Scriptures. ..."

In this most primitive record of the earliest teaching of the church Paul tells us, the teaching was passed on to him by others, namely that Jesus Christ died for our sins and was resurrected on the third day.

Then Paul mentions the eyewitnesses to Christ's resurrection, most of which were alive to refute or confirm Paul's declaration.

" ... And that He was buried, and that He has been raised on the third day according to the Scriptures; And that He appeared to Cephas [Peter], then to the twelve; Then He appeared to over five hundred brothers at one time, OF WHOM THE MAJORITY REMAIN UNTIL NOW, but some have fallen asleep [died in Christ]; Then He appeared to James, then to all the apostles.

Last of all He appeared to me also ... for I am least of the apostles who am not fit to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God." (See 1 Cor. 15:4-9a)

This was written approximately 59 A.D. At the end of Paul's three year stay in Ephesus (Acts 20:31; 1 Cor. 16:8)

The primitive Christian teaching was that Christ died for our sins and was resurrected from the dead on the third day. This was according to the promises of the Hebrew Scriptures and was the message of the original apostles. It was passed on to Paul who received it along with his considerable personal encounters and experiences of Jesus Christ.

It is in vain that you attempt to teach "another Jesus" and accuse the Apostle Paul of perverting the Gospel.

And when we see the words of Christ in the four gospels they only confirm everything that the Apostle Paul taught as content of the Gospel message.

Here is Luke's review of Christ's opening the minds of the bewildered disciples after His resurrection:

"But we were hoping that He was the One who was about to redeem Israel. Indeed, besides all these things, it is now going on the third day since these things took place. But moreover some women from among us amazed us. Being at the tomb early and not finding His body, they came saying that they had also seen a vision of angels, who said that He us living.

And He [the resurrected Jesus] said to them, O foolish and slow of heart to believe in all that the prophets have spoken!

Was it not necessary for the Christ to suffer these things and enter into His glory?

And beginning from Moses and from all the prophets, He explained to them clearly in all the Scriptures [Hebrew Bible] the things concerning Himself." (Luke 24:21-27)

Then again Jesus "opened their minds to understand the Scriptures" concerning His coming and His mission.

"And He took it [broiled fish] and ate before them [in His resurrected body]. And He said to them, These are My words which I spoke to you while Iwas still with you, that all the things written in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and Psalms concerning Me must be fulfilled.

Then He opened their mind to understand the Scriptures; And He said to them, Thus it is written, that Christ would suffer and rise up from the dead on the third day,

And that repentance for forgiveness of sins would be proclaimed in His name to all the nations, beginning from Jerusalem. You are witnesses of these things." (Luke 24:43-48)


The Apostle Paul was a faithful witness to the life, death, resurrection, ascension, and indwelling of Christ the Son of God. And He was a faithful teacher of the message which Christ and the twelve apostles taught. You should give up trying to slander Paul in order to teach "another Jesus" of your own inventing.

Originally posted by jaywill
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Just as you can continue to place the teachings of Paul and others above those of Jesus. As a consequence of this, you embrace twisted and barbaric thinking found in superstition.
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You should not put your hope in this belief, that the apostles of Christ perverted the nder Paul in order to teach "another Jesus" of your own inventing.[/b]

While Jesus walked the earth, He spoke of the becoming of one with God via righteousness. Jesus repeatedly spoke of what is and what is not righteousness and shared His commandments for being righteous. Jesus repeatedly spoke of repentance, i.e., becoming righteous. Jesus taught that being righteous is required for "eternal life"/"heaven"/"salvation".

Much of what Paul and others taught is not only a corruption of what Jesus taught, but is contrary to what Jesus taught. Much of what Paul and others taught is of "another Jesus" of THEIR own inventing.

"Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand."
"The truth will make you free."

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
While Jesus walked the earth, He spoke of the becoming of one with God via righteousness. Jesus repeatedly spoke of what is and what is not righteousness and shared His commandments for being righteous. Jesus repeatedly spoke of repentance, i.e., becoming righteous. Jesus taught that being righteous is required for "eternal life"/"heaven"/"salvation".



"Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand."
"The truth will make you free."

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While Jesus walked the earth, He spoke of the becoming of one with God via righteousness.
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And justification by faith is a first step in achieving that goal. Where mainstram Christianity is deficient is in assuming that forgiveness is an end in itself and has no other goal.

To become one with God one first must be taken out of an relationship of enmity with God through forgiveness.

If you try to be one with God WITHOUT the blood of Jesus Christ, the ACCUSER will never let you move forward. First you need something to shut the mouth of the one who would weaken you through repeated accusation:

"how can YOU be a Christian? How can YOU follow Jesus? Look what you are. And you think that YOU can be one with God ?"

The "accuser of the brothers" will will incessantly condemn you. Some condemnation will be baseless. But much condemnation will have some basis in truth. You did blow it this morning, for example.

You need the redemptive blood of Christ for eternal reconciliation to SHUT.... THE ... MOUTH ... OF ... THE .... ACCUSER. "They overcame him because of the blood of the Lamb ..." (Rev. 12:10) Who did they overcome ? "The accuser of the brothers has been cast down, who accuses them before our God day and night." (v.10)

This is not doctrine now. This is experience. Nothing silences the accusation of Satan like standing upon the redeeming blood of Christ, ie. holding fast to His eternal redemption.


Now a little bit of doctrine to help:

"For if we beinf enemies, were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more we will be saved in His life, having been reconciled." (Rom. 5:10)

Step one is that the standing of being enemies of God must be addressed through reconciliation. Having that now behind the believer is in the proper stage to receive something "much more". That is to "be saved in His life".

It is the indwelling life through the new birth which will "organically" bring the human life into mingling and union (ie. oneness with God). Having been eternally redeemed through the blood of Jesus, the blood of Jesus is the hydrogen bomb weapon to stop the accusation against the sinner's conscience by Satan.

There is a difference between the conviction of the Holy Spirit and the accusation of Satan.

The conviction of the Holy Spirit is to lead one to repentence and peace. It is always constructive and positive.

The accusation of Satan is only to weaken, darken, discourage. It is like the drip, drip, dripping of a leaking roof. It only has the aim to discourage one from coming to God. It only has the aim to cause one to hide from God or to embrace one's sins as not only inevitable but rather glorious - the "loud and proud" sinful man. He cannot escape his sins to he embraces his sins and even boasts in them.

There is a difference in the loving conviction of the Holy Spirit to bring one towards oneness with God and the accusation of God's enemy to drive a wedge between the loving Father and His children.

Don't even try to say this was not Christ's teaching. Your kind of crusade is mainly in opposition to the teaching that forgiveness is an end in itself. This some theologians have called "cheap grace". Though you don't use that term the net effect of your posts is aimed at that kind of concept.

Ie " It cannot possibly be the teaching of Jesus that once you are forgiven you have arrived, you have your ticket, you do not have to live like Christ ".

It is a legitimate concern. But unfortunately you seem to move into the accusation of the Christian brothers. I think day and night your thoughts are filled with accusations against Christians. "They are not following Christ. They are not true to the Gospel."

If Paul had only taught Justification by faith, then the book of Romans would have ENDED around the fourth chapter. However there are still twelve more chapters to go in Romans.

If Paul had taught so-called "cheap grace" maybe we would not have 13 epistles from this man. Just four chapters of Romans and a couple from Galatians would have been all we needed.

God will not live within a man until his past sins have been forgiven. From that new stage of being justified and reconciled to God forever, the believer can now move forward with a conscience under the redeeming blood of Jesus, to organically grow in God and have God grow in him.

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Jesus repeatedly spoke of what is and what is not righteousness and shared His commandments for being righteous. Jesus repeatedly spoke of repentance, i.e., becoming righteous. Jesus taught that being righteous is required for "eternal life"/"heaven"/"salvation".
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I have never been successful in getting you to uncouple these concepts "eternal life / heaven / salvation" in order to clearer teaching of the New Testament. Probably I cannot get you to do so now either.

But what you say about Christ obviously speaking of life and salvation in terms of something more than just being forgiven, does not mean He did not teach eternal redemption.

You have a false dichotomy. You seem to want a false dichotomy. It could be that you want this because of your self righteousness. Perhaps you are insulted by the teaching that you need forgiveness from God. Perhaps you compare yourself with some religious folks of the past and are unhappy that such poorly behaving people have the audacity to say that you need forgiveness to be saved.

Maybe I am wrong. But whatever the case, Christ's [AND Paul's] manifold teachings about what it is to live God, live by God, live unto God, and have God living in one, do not make eternal redemption null and void.

Having BEEN reconciled by the death of His Son, we WILL be saved in the sphere and realm of His indwelling spiritual life.


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Much of what Paul and others taught is not only a corruption of what Jesus taught, but is contrary to what Jesus taught. Much of what Paul and others taught is of "another Jesus" of THEIR own inventing.
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I don't know who "others" refers to. Of course some "others" have corrupted the Gospel of Christ.

Paul has not. It would be ETREMELY wise for anyone who wants to be a disciple to learn from Paul. He was one, (not necessarily the only one) who pioneered in the growth of this divine spiritual life within him.

"Jesus we like! Paul we don't like!" as an excuse to teach another Gospel won't work with some of us disciples.

This to me is nothing but rebellion against delegated authority. This smells the same as the hundreds who followed Korah to stone Moses saying that he was no really representing God.

This smells the same as those wanting to kill the prophets because they hated what God was speaking through them.

They did not believe that Jeremiah was speaking for God because they did not want to hear what was said. The same is true of many of the Old Testament prophets.

Claiming to really be on God's side they oppose God's deputy authority.

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"Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand."
"The truth will make you free."
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Amen.

So start telling the truth.
Stop rejecting Christ's apostles under the cloak of really being for Jesus.
Don't be a "wolf in sheep's clothing".

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
Did you miss the following or were you unable to comprehend it?

"The OP did not portray Christianity based solely on blood appeasement. There was no attempt in the OP to be 'representative of the Christian faith.'"

You are seriously in denial.

😴

Originally posted by Doward
😴

He doesn't understand. He needs the mercy of God. We have to pray for him.

I cannot change his mind. I never will. We can pray. We need mercy also.

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
One needn't look too hard at the OT or the NT to find it.

Here are a few examples:
1 Peter 3
18For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit;

1 Corinthians 15
3For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also recei ...[text shortened]... n, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him.

The death that was efficacious, was that His physical death or was it something other?

Originally posted by FreakyKBH
The death that was efficacious, was that His physical death or was it something other?

Make your best case.

Originally posted by jaywill
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While Jesus walked the earth, He spoke of the becoming of one with God via righteousness.
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And justification by faith is a first step in achieving that goal. Where mainstram Christianity is deficient is in assuming that forgiveness is an end in itself and has n ...[text shortened]... be a "wolf in sheep's clothing".[/b]

Actually Paul seems to fit the description of "wolf in sheep's clothing" quite well. His teachings have lead many astray from following the teachings of Jesus as they should.

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
Actually Paul seems to fit the description of "wolf in sheep's clothing" quite well. His teachings have lead many astray from following the teachings of Jesus as they should.

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Actually Paul seems to fit the description of "wolf in sheep's clothing" quite well. His teachings have lead many astray from following the teachings of Jesus as they should.
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You need to be saved. You are in danger of eternal damnation.

You are not a wolf in sheep's clothing. You're just a wolf.
Repent to believe the Gospel while you still have time.

Jesus loves you.

Originally posted by jaywill
[b]============================
Actually Paul seems to fit the description of "wolf in sheep's clothing" quite well. His teachings have lead many astray from following the teachings of Jesus as they should.
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You need to be saved. You are in danger of eternal damnation.

You are not a wolf in sheep's clothin ...[text shortened]... a wolf.
Repent to believe the Gospel while you still have time.

Jesus loves you.[/b]

Jesus taught that being righteous is required for "eternal life"/"heaven"/"salvation". Anything less than this is "cheap salvation". Many would-be followers of the teachings of Jesus are lured away by promises of "cheap salvation" taught by Paul and others. They cannot hear the words of Jesus because these promises are so enticing.

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
Jesus taught that being righteous is required for "eternal life"/"heaven"/"salvation". Anything less than this is "cheap salvation". Many would-be followers of the teachings of Jesus are lured away by promises of "cheap salvation" taught by Paul and others. They cannot hear the words of Jesus because these promises are so enticing.

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Jesus taught that being righteous is required for "eternal life"/"heaven"/"salvation". Anything less than this is "cheap salvation". Many would-be followers of the teachings of Jesus are lured away by promises of "cheap salvation" taught by Paul and others. They cannot hear the words of Jesus because these promises are so enticing.
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Jesus said "... for apart from Me you can do nothing."

"Abide in Me and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you unless you abide in Me.

I am the vine; you are the branches. He who abides in Me bears much fruit; FOR APART FROM ME YOU CAN DO NOTHING." (John 15:4,5)

Can you be righteous apart from Christ, apart from abiding in Christ ?

Do you think you can be right with God, non-cheaply, apart from Jesus Christ in any regard ?

Jesus also said in His establishment of the Lord's table - "For this is My blood of the covenant, which is being poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins." (Matt. 26:28)

Do you regard Jesus teaching that the pouring out of His blood for the forgiveness of sins was "cheap" ?

Originally posted by jaywill
[b]================================
Jesus taught that being righteous is required for "eternal life"/"heaven"/"salvation". Anything less than this is "cheap salvation". Many would-be followers of the teachings of Jesus are lured away by promises of "cheap salvation" taught by Paul and others. They cannot hear the words of Jesus because these promises a that the pouring out of His blood for the forgiveness of sins was "cheap" ?

[/b]Jesus also said in His establishment of the Lord's table - "For this is My blood of the covenant, which is being poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins." (Matt. 26:28)

Do you regard Jesus teaching that the pouring out of His blood for the forgiveness of sins was "cheap" ?

What is "cheap", is that it's cheap for the individual. But I think you are well aware of that .

The word you show in Matthew 26 as translated as "forgiveness" literally means means "freedom". There Jesus is speaking of "freedom from sin", not "forgiveness from sins". This is consistent with the passage containing the oft quoted, "The truth will make you free" which is also referring to "freedom from sin". But I think you are well aware of this also.

You cannot hear the words of Jesus because, as I said earlier, "Many would-be followers of the teachings of Jesus are lured away by promises of 'cheap salvation' taught by Paul and others. They cannot hear the words of Jesus because these promises are so enticing."

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
Jesus also said in His establishment of the Lord's table - "For this is My blood of the covenant, which is being poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins." (Matt. 26:28)

Do you regard Jesus teaching that the pouring out of His blood for the forgiveness of sins was "cheap" ?

What is "cheap", is that it's cheap for the individual. ...[text shortened]... cannot hear the words of Jesus because these promises are so enticing."[/b]

"Many would-be followers of the teachings of Jesus are lured away by promises of 'cheap salvation' taught by Paul and others. They cannot hear the words of Jesus because these promises are so enticing."


I am not a follower of the 'teachings' of Jesus. I am a follower of Jesus.

The concept of 'cheap salvation' is an illusion. There is no such thing as "cheap salvation".


Paul did not teach any such thing as "cheap salvation".

You have been misinformed and misdirected.

Originally posted by josephw
[b]"Many would-be followers of the teachings of Jesus are lured away by promises of 'cheap salvation' taught by Paul and others. They cannot hear the words of Jesus because these promises are so enticing."


I am not a follower of the 'teachings' of Jesus. I am a follower of Jesus.

The concept of 'cheap salvation' is an illusion. There is no such t ...[text shortened]... h any such thing as "cheap salvation".

You have been misinformed and misdirected.[/b]

I am not a follower of the 'teachings' of Jesus. I am a follower of Jesus.

Listen to what Jesus had to say about His disciples, i.e., followers:
John 8
31 To the Jews who had believed him, Jesus said, “If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples. 32 Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.”

Thus, according to Jesus, to be His "follower", one must follow His teachings.

Thus your claim is logically inconsistent with being a true follower of Jesus.