Break It Down

Originally posted by googlefudge
Adaptation of species is not proof of evolution. It IS evolution.

Adaptation to the environment for competitive advantage is what evolution IS.

By admitting adaptation happens you are admitting that evolution happens.

You are the one who keeps defining evolution as something it is not and then claiming that
doesn't happen.

And seriously giv ...[text shortened]... ow this because it's been explained to you countless times.
You are just lying at this point.

Adaptation of species is not proof of evolution. It IS evolution.

no its not and if you knew anything about the evolutionary theory you would know that
its not. For example we are taught that fish became amphibians, amphibians became
reptiles, reptiles became birds and birds became mammals (now in some dispute).
This is not adaptation, its transmutation. Adaptation is when genus adapts to its
immediate environment. What is more, there is no empirical evidence to demonstrate
that any genus has transmutated through adaptation, despite the millions of mutations
done in experiments with malaria and e-coli and drosophila melanogaster (fruit fly) .
In fact in the case of the latter it was discovered that in almost every
instance the mutation was inferior.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
again this is simply untrue, there are not a small amount of scientists and biologists
who according to your definition must also be ignorant, for they have real problems
with some of its tenets. I have often found this to be true of the materialist, having no
recourse to any other argument they simply resort to terming others who disagree
w ...[text shortened]... e heavens of the type of denunciation favoured by the
meanest religionists of the middle ages.

Name me these biologists. I'm intrigued.

Originally posted by Proper Knob
Name me these biologists. I'm intrigued.

Some modern scientists who have accepted the biblical account of creation
Dr. William Arion, Biochemistry, Chemistry
Dr. Paul Ackerman, Psychologist
Dr. E. Theo Agard, Medical Physics
Dr. Steve Austin, Geologist
Dr. S.E. Aw, Biochemist
Dr. Thomas Barnes, Physicist
Dr. Geoff Barnard, Immunologist
Dr. Don Batten, Plant Physiologist
Dr. John Baumgardner, Electrical Engineering, Space Physicist, Geophysicist, expert in supercomputer modeling of plate tectonics
Dr. Jerry Bergman, Psychologist
Dr. Kimberly Berrine, Microbiology & Immunology
Prof. Vladimir Betina, Microbiology, Biochemistry & Biology
Dr. Andrew Bosanquet, Biology, Microbiology
Edward A. Boudreaux, Theoretical Chemistry
Dr. David R. Boylan, Chemical Engineer
Prof. Linn E. Carothers, Associate Professor of Statistics
Dr. Rob Carter, Marine Biology
Dr. David Catchpoole, Plant Physiology
Prof. Sung-Do Cha, Physics
Dr. Eugene F. Chaffin, Professor of Physics
Dr. Choong-Kuk Chang, Genetic Engineering
Prof. Jeun-Sik Chang, Aeronautical Engineering
Dr. Donald Chittick, Physical Chemist
Prof. Chung-Il Cho, Biology Education
Dr. John M. Cimbala, Mechanical Engineering
Dr. Harold Coffin, Palaeontologist
Timothy C. Coppess, M.S., Environmental Scientist
Dr. Bob Compton, DVM
Dr. Ken Cumming, Biologist
Dr. Jack W. Cuozzo, Dentist
Dr. William M. Curtis III, Th.D., Th.M., M.S., Aeronautics & Nuclear Physics
Dr. Malcolm Cutchins, Aerospace Engineering
Dr. Lionel Dahmer, Analytical Chemist
Dr. Raymond V. Damadian, M.D., Pioneer of magnetic resonance imaging
Dr. Chris Darnbrough, Biochemist
Dr. Nancy M. Darrall, Botany
Dr. Bryan Dawson, Mathematics
Dr. Douglas Dean, Biological Chemistry
Prof. Stephen W. Deckard, Assistant Professor of Education
Dr. David A. DeWitt, Biology, Biochemistry, Neuroscience
Dr. Don DeYoung, Astronomy, atmospheric physics, M.Div
Dr. Geoff Downes, Creationist Plant Physiologist
Dr. Ted Driggers, Operations research
Robert H. Eckel, Medical Research
Dr. André Eggen, Geneticist
Dr. Dudley Eirich, Molecular Biologist
Prof. Dennis L. Englin, Professor of Geophysics
Dr. Andrew J. Fabich, Microbiology
Prof. Danny Faulkner, Astronomy
Prof. Carl B. Fliermans, Professor of Biology
Prof. Dwain L. Ford, Organic Chemistry
Dr. Kenneth W. Funk, Organic Chemistry
Prof. Robert H. Franks, Associate Professor of Biology
Dr. Alan Galbraith, Watershed Science
Dr. Paul Giem, Medical Research
Dr. Maciej Giertych, Geneticist
Dr. Duane Gish, Biochemist
Dr. Werner Gitt, Information Scientist
Dr. Warwick Glover, General Surgeon
Dr. D.B. Gower, Biochemistry
Dr. Robin Greer, Chemist, History
Dr. Stephen Grocott, Chemist
Dr. Vicki Hagerman, DMV
Dr. Donald Hamann, Food Scientist
Dr. Barry Harker, Philosopher
Dr. Charles W. Harrison, Applied Physicist, Electromagnetics
Dr. John Hartnett, Physics
Dr. Mark Harwood, Engineering (satellite specialist)
Dr. George Hawke, Environmental Scientist
Dr. Margaret Helder, Science Editor, Botanist
Dr. Harold R. Henry, Engineer
Dr. Jonathan Henry, Astronomy
Dr. Joseph Henson, Entomologist
Dr. Robert A. Herrmann, Professor of Mathematics, US Naval Academy
Dr. Andrew Hodge, Head of the Cardiothoracic Surgical Service
Dr. Kelly Hollowell, Molecular and Cellular Pharmacologist
Dr. Ed Holroyd, III, Atmospheric Science
Dr. Bob Hosken, Biochemistry
Dr. George F. Howe, Botany
Dr. Neil Huber, Physical Anthropologist
Dr. James A. Huggins, Professor and Chair, Department of Biology
Dr. Russ Humphreys, Physics
Evan Jamieson, Hydrometallurgy
George T. Javor, Biochemistry
Dr. Pierre Jerlström, Molecular Biology
Dr. Arthur Jones, Biology
Dr. Jonathan W. Jones, Plastic Surgeon
Dr. Raymond Jones, Agricultural Scientist
Prof. Leonid Korochkin, Molecular Biology
Dr. William F. Kane, (Civil) Geotechnical Engineering
Dr. Valery Karpounin, Mathematical Sciences, Logics, Formal Logics
Dr. Dean Kenyon, Biologist
Prof. Gi-Tai Kim, Biology
Prof. Harriet Kim, Biochemistry
Prof. Jong-Bai Kim, Biochemistry
Prof. Jung-Han Kim, Biochemistry
Prof. Jung-Wook Kim, Environmental Science
Prof. Kyoung-Rai Kim, Analytical Chemistry
Prof. Kyoung-Tai Kim, Genetic Engineering
Prof. Young-Gil Kim, Materials Science
Prof. Young In Kim, Engineering
Dr. John W. Klotz, Biologist
Dr. Vladimir F. Kondalenko, Cytology/Cell Pathology
Dr. Leonid Korochkin, M.D., Genetics, Molecular Biology, Neurobiology
Dr. John K.G. Kramer, Biochemistry
Dr. Johan Kruger, Zoology
Prof. Jin-Hyouk Kwon, Physics
Prof. Myung-Sang Kwon, Immunology
Dr. John G. Leslie, Biochemist, Physician, Archaeologist
Dr. Jason Lisle, Astrophysicist
Dr. Alan Love, Chemist
Dr. Ian Macreadie, molecular biologist and microbiologist:
Dr. John Marcus, Molecular Biologist
Dr. Ronald C. Marks, Associate Professor of Chemistry
Dr. George Marshall, Eye Disease Researcher
Dr. Ralph Matthews, Radiation Chemist
Dr. John McEwan, Chemist
Prof. Andy McIntosh, Combustion theory, aerodynamics
Dr. David Menton, Anatomist
Dr. Angela Meyer, Creationist Plant Physiologist
Dr. John Meyer, Physiologist
Dr. Albert Mills, Animal Embryologist/Reproductive Physiologist
Colin W. Mitchell, Geography
Dr. Tommy Mitchell, Physician
Dr. John N. Moore, Science Educator
Dr. John W. Moreland, Mechanical engineer and Dentist
Dr. Henry M. Morris (1918–2006), founder of the Institute for Creation Research.
Dr. Arlton C. Murray, Paleontologist
Dr. John D. Morris, Geologist
Dr. Len Morris, Physiologist
Dr. Graeme Mortimer, Geologist
Dr. Terry Mortenson, History of Geology
Stanley A. Mumma, Architectural Engineering
Prof. Hee-Choon No, Nuclear Engineering
Dr. Eric Norman, Biomedical researcher
Dr. David Oderberg, Philosopher
Prof. John Oller, Linguistics
Prof. Chris D. Osborne, Assistant Professor of Biology
Dr. John Osgood, Medical Practitioner
Dr. Charles Pallaghy, Botanist
Dr. Gary E. Parker, Biologist, Cognate in Geology (Paleontology)
Dr. David Pennington, Plastic Surgeon
Prof. Richard Porter
Dr. Georgia Purdom, Molecular Genetics
Dr. John Rankin, Cosmologist
Dr. A.S. Reece, M.D.
Prof. J. Rendle-Short, Pediatrics
Dr. Jung-Goo Roe, Biology
Dr. David Rosevear, Chemist
Dr. Ariel A. Roth, Biology
Dr. Jonathan Sarfati, Physical Chemistry
Dr. Joachim Scheven Palaeontologist:
Dr. Ian Scott, Educator
Dr. Saami Shaibani, Forensic physicist
Dr. Young-Gi Shim, Chemistry
Prof. Hyun-Kil Shin, Food Science
Dr. Mikhail Shulgin, Physics
Dr. Emil Silvestru, Geology
Dr. Roger Simpson, Engineer
Dr. Harold Slusher, Geophysicist
Dr. E. Norbert Smith, Zoologist
George S. Smith, M.S., Chemistry
Dr. Andrew Snelling, Geologist
Prof. Man-Suk Song, Computer Science
Dr. Timothy G. Standish, Biology
Prof. James Stark, Assistant Professor of Science Education
Prof. Brian Stone, Engineer
Dr. Esther Su, Biochemistry
Dr. Charles Taylor, Linguistics
Dr. Stephen Taylor, Electrical Engineering
Dr. Ker C. Thomson, Geophysics
Dr. Michael Todhunter, Forest Genetics
Dr. Lyudmila Tonkonog, Chemistry/Biochemistry
Dr. Royal Truman, Organic Chemist:
Dr. Larry Vardiman, Atmospheric Science
Prof. Walter Veith, Zoologist
Dr. Joachim Vetter, Biologist
Dr. Stephen J. Vinay III, Chemical Engineering
Sir Cecil P. G. Wakeley (1892–1979) Surgeon
Dr. Tas Walker, Geology/Engineering
Dr. Jeremy Walter, Mechanical Engineer
Dr. Keith Wanser, Physicist
Dr. Noel Weeks, Ancient Historian (also has B.Sc. in Zoology)
Dr. A.J. Monty White, Chemistry/Gas Kinetics
Dr. John Whitmore, Geologist/Paleontologist
Dr. Carl Wieland, Medicine/Surgery
Arthur E. Wilder-Smith (1915–1995) Three science doctorates; a creation science pioneer
Dr. Clifford Wilson, Psycholinguist and archaeologist
Dr. Kurt Wise, Palaeontologist
Prof. Verna Wright, Rheumatologist (deceased 1997)
Prof. Seoung-Hoon Yang, Physics
Dr. Thomas (Tong Y.) Yi, Ph.D., Creationist Aerospace & Mechanical Engineering
Dr. Ick-Dong Yoo, Genetics
Dr. Sung-Hee Yoon, Biology
Dr. Patrick Young, Chemist and Materials Scientist
Prof. Keun Bae Yu, Geography
Dr. Henry Zuill, Biology

Originally posted by RJHinds
Some modern scientists who have accepted the biblical account of creation
Dr. William Arion, Biochemistry, Chemistry
Dr. Paul Ackerman, Psychologist
Dr. E. Theo Agard, Medical Physics
Dr. Steve Austin, Geologist
Dr. S.E. Aw, Biochemist
Dr. Thomas Barnes, Physicist
Dr. Geoff Barnard, Immunologist
Dr. Don Batten, Plant Physiologist
Dr. John Ba ...[text shortened]... Young, Chemist and Materials Scientist
Prof. Keun Bae Yu, Geography
Dr. Henry Zuill, Biology

Biologists Ron. That was what i asked for.

Edit - I counted around 20 biologists on that list.

Originally posted by Proper Knob
Biologists Ron. That was what i asked for.

Edit - I counted around 20 biologists on that list.

Out of how many tens (hundreds) of thousands of biologists around the world....

95+% of hundreds of thousands still leaves scope for a few hundred discredited fringe dissenters.

Interesting though how the list always gets bulked out with non-biologists because they can't find
enough actual biologists.

Project Steve ftw

Originally posted by googlefudge
Out of how many tens (hundreds) of thousands of biologists around the world....

95+% of hundreds of thousands still leaves scope for a few hundred discredited fringe dissenters.

Interesting though how the list always gets bulked out with non-biologists because they can't find
enough actual biologists.

Problems with Evolution

YouTube

http://www.godtube.com/watch/?v=GDPNNN8X

Originally posted by googlefudge
Out of how many tens (hundreds) of thousands of biologists around the world....

95+% of hundreds of thousands still leaves scope for a few hundred discredited fringe dissenters.

Interesting though how the list always gets bulked out with non-biologists because they can't find
enough actual biologists.

The list is also bulked out with the deceased.

So we have a list of "scientists" who may or may not be biologists, and may or may not be living, who according to Mr Hinds have a problem with evolution.

Just for fun I tried googling some of the names. I found no references on the net apart from Creationist Sites and debates about evolution

Do these people actually exist?

Originally posted by wolfgang59
The list is also bulked out with the deceased.

So we have a list of "scientists" who may or may not be biologists, and may or may not be living, who according to Mr Hinds have a problem with evolution.

Just for fun I tried googling some of the names. I found no references on the net [b]apart from Creationist Sites and debates about evolution

Do these people actually exist?[/b]

Parade of Ph.D. Biologists Support Teaching "Strengths and Weaknesses" of Evolution in Texas


Casey Luskin March 25, 2009 7:28 PM | Permalink



AUSTIN, Texas--Having watched most of the testimony today before the Texas State Board of Education, the contrast between the pro-strengths-and-weaknesses side and the evolution lobby could not be clearer. The evolution lobby continually focused on religion, trying to distract from the real issue by telling the Board that they should not teach both the evidence for and against evolution because somehow that brings religion into the curriculum. Our side focused overwhelmingly on science.

Ph.D. biologists who testified in favor of the teaching the "strengths and weaknesses" included Ray Bohlin, Don Ewert, Wade Warren, and Sara Kolb Hicks. Warren and Hicks gave striking testimony about the lack of academic freedom for university researchers. Warren testified about how a non-mandatory discussion on the pros and cons of evolution that he wanted to hold while a graduate student in biology was shut down. Specifically, Hicks, who holds a Ph.D. in Ecology and Evolutionary Biology from Rice University, lamented the fact that "science censorship permeates education and the undergraduate and graduate level." These biologists testified about weaknesses in evolution including the limits to the amount of biological change that can be effected by natural selection, the lack of evidence for evolution in the fossil record, the inability of Darwinian evolution to produce the complexity of cellular processes, and the fact that evolution is not even required to do most biology research.

Additionally, LeTourneau biology professor Karen Rispin testified about scientific weaknesses in evolution pertaining to the presentation of evolution in biology textbooks, and discrepancies between fossil and molecular dates for alleged common ancestors of species. By the end of the day, no one could say with a straight face that there are no scientific weaknesses in evolution, or that no credible scientists doubt neo-Darwinism.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
Adaptation of species is not proof of evolution. It IS evolution.

no its not and if you knew anything about the evolutionary theory you would know that
its not. For example we are taught that fish became amphibians, amphibians became
reptiles, reptiles became birds and birds became mammals (now in some dispute).
This is not adaptation, it ...[text shortened]... case of the latter it was discovered that in almost every
instance the mutation was inferior.

Rob??? Who are these biologists?

Originally posted by Proper Knob
Rob??? Who are these biologists?

Michael Denton, is one that i can think off the top of my head and there are no doubt
many others, as RJH has pointed out. Never the less this is immaterial, simply stating
that the majority accept it is hardly proof of anything other than the majority accept it.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
Michael Denton, is one that i can think off the top of my head and there are no doubt
many others, as RJH has pointed out. Never the less this is immaterial, simply stating
that the majority accept it is hardly proof of anything other than the majority accept it.

I'm disputing this statement from you -

there are not a small amount of scientists and biologists

So far you and RJHinds have come up with about 20 biologists who don't accept evolution. You are right that is not a small amount, but an almost non-existent amount when you consider how many biologists must exist in the world.

I'd not heard of Michael Denton so i had a quick check, it turns out that he has had a change of heart in recent years and now accepts evolution with a slight change. He doesn't believe the process is random but instead 'directed'. So it turns out your one biologist who doesn't accept evolution actually does.

Anymore?

Originally posted by Proper Knob
I'm disputing this statement from you -

there are not a small amount of scientists and biologists

So far you and RJHinds have come up with about 20 biologists who don't accept evolution. You are right that is not a small amount, but an almost non-existent amount when you consider how many biologists must exist in the world.

o it turns out your one biologist who doesn't accept evolution actually does.

Anymore?

twenty is plenty me thinks! for you to be going on with. as for accepting evolution, he
clearly distinguishes between micro evolution and macro, that is adaptation and
transmutation, while you people are trying to palm us off with the belief that they are
one and the same! As i have stated now many times, a lion may be able to overcome
all other lions, it doesn't become a Zebra afterwards.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
twenty is plenty me thinks! for you to be going on with. as for accepting evolution, he
clearly distinguishes between micro evolution and macro, that is adaptation and
transmutation, while you people are trying to palm us off with the belief that they are
one and the same! As i have stated now many times, a lion may be able to overcome
all other lions, it doesn't become a Zebra afterwards.

Twenty is a joke. Utterly absurd.

I think you're wrrong on Mr Denton. He as had a change of heart. He now accepts the whole kit-and-caboodle.

'Nature's Destiny' is one long argument for the biocentric Fine Tuning of the Universe. In that sense it is a greatly expanded version of the chapter "The Puzzle of Perfection" in his Evolution: a theory in crisis(1986). However the Fine Tuning Argument does not only imply cosmological evolution, but it also implies biological evolution. And that is exactly what his previous book Evolution: A Theory in crisis attacked in the most thorough way. And biological evolution, that is the common descent of all life, is exactly what he defends now in Nature's Destiny. Not a limited version of evolution. No, complete naturalistic evolution from inorganic materials to the first cell to humans.

http://home.wxs.nl/~gkorthof/kortho29.htm

Why/how would a lion become a zebra?

Originally posted by Proper Knob
Twenty is a joke. Utterly absurd.

I think you're wrrong on Mr Denton. He as had a change of heart. He now accepts the whole kit-and-caboodle.

[quote] 'Nature's Destiny' is one long argument for the biocentric Fine Tuning of the Universe. In that sense it is a greatly expanded version of the chapter "The Puzzle of Perfection" in his Evolution: a the ...[text shortened]... ote]

http://home.wxs.nl/~gkorthof/kortho29.htm

Why/how would a lion become a zebra?

whatever, i am in too much an amicable mood to argue. twenty is still plenty!