1. Joined
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    12 May '10 02:20
    If buddhists percieve reality as it is, unfettered from dualistic thoughts, how can they define morality, which concerns itself with right and wrong, good and bad?
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    12 May '10 03:09
    Originally posted by Beyer
    If buddhists percieve reality as it is, unfettered from dualistic thoughts, how can they define morality, which concerns itself with right and wrong, good and bad?
    Picture Homer Simpson as a Buddhist replying, "D'oh!!"
  3. Standard memberkaroly aczel
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    12 May '10 04:21
    Originally posted by Beyer
    If buddhists percieve reality as it is, unfettered from dualistic thoughts, how can they define morality, which concerns itself with right and wrong, good and bad?
    Do Bhuddists define morality? Perhaps they "lead by example" where morality is concerned but, as you rightly point out, Bhuddist literature steers away from "good and bad". This is truly a disturbing universe.
  4. Hmmm . . .
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    12 May '10 04:24
    Originally posted by Beyer
    If buddhists percieve reality as it is, unfettered from dualistic thoughts, how can they define morality, which concerns itself with right and wrong, good and bad?
    Excellent question! There are, of course, different stripes of Buddhism (mine—more Zen—for example is a bit different from TerrierJack’s, who is more “traditional” Mahayana). From my view, any Buddhist morality (ethics) arises from that very non-dualism. You are not fundamentally different from me; we both are born out of the same existential matrix into a complex of existential conditions. The exact conditions are, of course, variable; and that ought not to be glossed over. But the fact of our existing in this world, as it is—however it is for each of us—is mutual.

    That fact is the basis is the basis for the fundamental Buddhist ethical principle: compassion. One who acts to harm another without justification violates that principle. If I act to prevent such harm, I am acting in accord with that principle. I may, of course, harm the harmer in the process. But I will not then visit upon the harmer further harm out of vindictiveness.

    There is no pretense here to infallibility, no exogenous rule which would guarantee appropriate response in any and every scenario. I do not think that such a rule can be had.

    Those who act in non-compassionate ways are denying, de facto, the very non-dualism that you cite. They see the other as sufficiently “other” so as not to merit compassion. Instead of “good and evil”, Buddhists tend to see things in terms of clarity versus illusion. The person who opts to inflict harm on others for her own gratification is operating from an illusory view. I have compassion for that; that does not mean that I cannot act to prevent them from inflicting such harm. “Illusion” is not a gloss that debilitates me from acting to prevent harm.

    Therefore, in any given situation, the ethical question for me is simply, “What is the most compassionate action in this situation?” Again, I have no pretense to infallibility.
  5. Standard memberblack beetle
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    12 May '10 04:30
    Originally posted by Beyer
    If buddhists percieve reality as it is, unfettered from dualistic thoughts, how can they define morality, which concerns itself with right and wrong, good and bad?
    Namaste😵
  6. Hmmm . . .
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    12 May '10 04:38
    Originally posted by black beetle
    Namaste😵
    Well, that's Karoly's "leading by example". 🙂

    Namaste yourself. (And Karoly, too.)
  7. Standard memberblack beetle
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    12 May '10 04:39
    Originally posted by vistesd
    Excellent question! There are, of course, different stripes of Buddhism (mine—more Zen—for example is a bit different from TerrierJack’s, who is more “traditional” Mahayana). From my view, any Buddhist morality (ethics) arises from that very non-dualism. You are not fundamentally different from me; we both are born out of the same existential mat ...[text shortened]... st compassionate action in this situation?” Again, I have no pretense to infallibility.
    That ole Bull of yers went again trotting the Way -I see you riding him in bliss by the streams that flow towards their fountain😵
  8. Standard memberblack beetle
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    12 May '10 04:42
    Originally posted by vistesd
    Well, that's Karoly's "leading by example". 🙂

    Namaste yourself. (And Karoly, too.)
    Namaste😵
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    12 May '10 05:072 edits
    Originally posted by black beetle
    That ole Bull of yers went again trotting the Way -I see you riding him in bliss by the streams that flow towards their fountain😵
    Is that good or bad?

    Edit: Is that compassionate or otherwise?

    Picture Homer Simpson trying to read this thread and then understand it saying: "D'oh!!"
  10. Joined
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    12 May '10 05:11
    Originally posted by vistesd
    That fact is the basis is the basis for the fundamental Buddhist ethical principle: compassion.
    Why?
  11. Hmmm . . .
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    12 May '10 05:151 edit
    Originally posted by whodey
    Is that good or bad?

    Edit: Is that compassionate or otherwise?

    Picture Homer Simpson trying to read this thread and then understand it saying: "D'oh!!"
    It was generous. A very kind comment.
  12. Hmmm . . .
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    12 May '10 05:201 edit
    Originally posted by whodey
    Why?
    The natural response from one who has suffered, seeing another being suffer. Based on what one might call "recognition" of similar-self in the other. The whole model is much more one of illness and wellness (rather like a prominent stream in Greek Orthodox Christianity) than right-doing/reward, wrong-doing/punishment.
  13. Standard memberkaroly aczel
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    12 May '10 06:16
    Originally posted by vistesd
    It was generous. A very kind comment.
    Yes, a compliment can be hard to understand for an outsider in Zen Bhuddism.

    For example a Zen master may hit a student with a stick and this can be considered a huge compliment. All actions/comments by masters are intrinsically non-dualistic. They always lead the student away from dualistic tendencies, like thinking in terms of good and bad.

    A student may take a long time to formulate a "correct" (non-dualistic) response.

    Indeed the study of Zen is not good for much in this world of becoming, however it is indispensible for any truly serious seeker.

    If your enquiries into these lines of thought(s) lead you to a dead end you may consider yourself to be on the right track.
  14. Cape Town
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    12 May '10 06:22
    Originally posted by vistesd
    The natural response from one who has suffered, seeing another being suffer.
    I am not convinced that you have explained morality other than to say that it is 'natural', ie you feel compassion. You don't seem to explain why responding to the feeling of compassion is 'right'.
  15. Standard memberblack beetle
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    12 May '10 07:15
    Originally posted by twhitehead
    I am not convinced that you have explained morality other than to say that it is 'natural', ie you feel compassion. You don't seem to explain why responding to the feeling of compassion is 'right'.
    He explained about “moralilty”, which is empty -but you need many words; I will give you many words

    We resolve in Bodhi, we regulate and cultivate ourselves

    We bring forth a great resolve with a pure mind of Great Kindness and Compassion

    It is my knowledge that when you cultivate yourself this way, you get all the good roots

    When you get all the good roots, your pure mind will penetrate all things

    Being able to penetrate all things you will have the skills required to teach and transform living beings

    At that level of awareness you will be able to cultivate further without retreating in thought, position or practice

    This will bring you pure youth

    Pure youth will bring up the anointment of your spirit and the Way will be quite visible to you

    At that level you will see on the spot how to ask the right questions and at the same time how to seek the answers from the right person

    So proceed on your own by means of pure conduct; bring forth the Bodhi mind!

    Do not deviate from the principle of the void

    Emptiness does not come out of the destruction of the Floating World, therefore the extinction and destruction of an existing phenomenon is not nirvana

    Emptiness is not a Floating World-like entity separated from form; emptiness does not exist as an entity that one has to focus, realize and meditate on

    Thus I have heard from the Voice of the Horse: there is nothing to be removed from it and nothing to be added. Once actual reality is seen as it really is, the one who sees it is released

    The basic element is empty of whatever is manifested, which has the characteristic of being separable; it is not empty of dharma, which they have the characteristic of being inseparable

    It is my knowledge the emptiness succumbs neither to the superimposition nor to the denial; if your sixth strays away from this essence you do not understand the ultimate emptiness and you can neither realize nor reveal the non-conceptual expanse

    First cultivate a proper resolve, then develop a true and great resolve and then proceed by means of the realization of a complete resolve

    It is my knowledge that once you cultivate morality, concentration and wisdom whilst overcoming greed, hatred, and delusion, you feel naturally free to benefit other living beings and other people; overcoming selfishness is the key

    Everything is made from the mind alone, mind leads the universe -and every sentient being owns the sovereignty of mind; to understand the mind you need to meditate

    Meditation reveals you how to conduct happiness, benefiting, non-opposition, perseverance, liberation from confusion, wholesome manifestation, non-attachment, difficult attainment, wholesome morality and full understanding

    This way you establish pure Belief, pure Precepts, Pure Shame, Pure Remorse, Pure Learning, Pure Giving, Pure Wisdom, Pure Mindfulness, Pure Upholding and Pure Eloquence

    Do not bow out of fear; do not bow out of seeking benefits; do not bow out of arrogance, do not bow out of seeking fame; do not bow out of imitation; bow to the pure wisdom; bow when you contemplate the nature of your mind; bow in front of the cultivation of proper contemplation; bow with one mind; bow without attachment;

    If you see in front of you a person who claims that s/he is talking to you in behalf of the so called “god” or that s/he is a Buddha whilst you are not and therefore s/he pushes you to bow to her/ his authority, you are in front of a fraud; for the Buddha is just true principle, and true principle is just the Buddha. Once you understand true principal you understand Buddha

    Ones’ concern for the welfare of all creatures should cover every existence by means of conversion of evil to good and of conversion of delusion to understanding

    Give, give, give! Give away what you like

    When you give away things you do not want, you do not conduct giving but discarding

    So transfer from yourself to others whatever you cherish most, and do it with indestructible mind so that you make the living beings peaceful and happy

    Cultivation, learning and attainment will bring peace and joy in your nature -this is how I understand happiness

    Happy is the one who is always mindful of the true principal; the one who is always enthusiastic; the one who does not cultivate afflictions; the one who is kind with the living beings; the one who is happy for s/he benefits the living beings; the one who has pure conduct; the one who is afraid not; the one who is selfless and not greedy; the one who enjoys to give; the one who is full of compassion; the one who cross-checks his mind constantly at every level and keeps her/ his awareness in full;

    By means of getting your thoughts together you constitute the precepts, and this is where from concentration arises; out of concentration flows wisdom, whilst concentration arises out of precepts and wisdom arises out of concentration

    So never cultivate greedy thoughts; whoever seeks for spiritual powers ends up stranded

    Patience to me is priceless, for when you know how to use it everything works fine: when you rush not and never dally you ’ll get there just in time

    When you know yourself you know everything

    The Pure Land is your mind purified

    Just face the world without delusion; this attitude is the ground of courage and wisdom

    Cultivate the power to acknowledge instantly that you are in error just when you understand you are in error

    Don’t blame the other; blame yourself, for you were unable to cultivate the transmittance of the beam of the Way to the people in your environment

    So do not cultivate ignorance

    Do not increase your emotions

    Rejoice in merit and virtue and destroy evilness

    From body, speech and mind let freely good to flow

    Purify your mind by means of defilement

    Wish to every living being well

    Free the people by means of transmitting pure conduct

    Avoid the evil destinies by any means

    See the cause and effect procedure in a billion things

    Follow the stream upwards and never turn your back on your source

    You are just another wave in the sea of suffering

    Conduct proper cross-check in cause and effect and escape shamelessness

    Escape unconcern, exhaust your evil karma

    Break free from constant thought

    Bring forth your mind resolve, avoid non-rejoicing

    Feel deep down the emptiness and break free from the afflictions and the improper views

    This is the Sudden Teaching of the Thus Come One


    May All Beings Be Happy😵
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