Buddhism and Scientology

Originally posted by scottishinnz
Oh, absolutely. However, there will always be a hardcore of people (think KellyJay, JayWill, etc) who will never concede that they might be wrong. These people are thus beyond debating with.

Over time you can wear away at their bias. You might not see the effects, but I bet the KellyJay of today is not the same one that joined the site. Everyone here who's interacted with him has influenced him.

Originally posted by AThousandYoung
She's easily convinced otherwise if the facts are there to support you. You start with that kind of person by pointing out how emotionally attached to the topic they are. You do it in public and let her humiliate herself by flipping out at very reasonable logic. Just keep talking to her about it. If she tells you she never wants to talk about it a ...[text shortened]... receptive. Person A is logical and calm, Person B is a hysterical nut. People will listen.

I see your point, but it does assume that at least some of these people are receptive to your point of view. Otherwise, she looks entirely justified, and you look like a trouble maker.

Originally posted by AThousandYoung
Over time you can wear away at their bias. You might not see the effects, but I bet the KellyJay of today is not the same one that joined the site. Everyone here who's interacted with him has influenced him.

Whodey, definitely.

I agree we have a duty to try, and knowing your "enemy" is a fine adage. However, for anyone to actually be affected by your claims it requires them to hold some credibility that they might be true.

Originally posted by scottishinnz
I see your point, but it does assume that at least some of these people are receptive to your point of view. Otherwise, she looks entirely justified, and you look like a trouble maker.

So I'm a troublemaker. So what?

And...she's irrational.

Do you take the reasoning of someone who makes trouble by being logical...or the irrational, hysteric one? Seriously...do the people who witnessed all this have more or less respect for the USA and her freedoms? Whether the US is the free-est country does not depend on whether you or she is more popular...not much anyway.

Oooh...here's more ammo for this lady. She's an obnoxious American. Everyone except conservatives in America will be biased against her already. Don't stress about her being more popular unless you're in Texas or something.

Originally posted by AThousandYoung
They own L. Ron Hubbard Boulevard and the surrounding area, east of Hollywood.

Sounds disgusting--a hive of sick minds...First thing to go is the dress sense. What cars do they drive? What businesses thrive in that precinct, or does nothing exactly thrive?

Lawsuits and harassments--standard cult tactics, Jim Jones and the People's Temple would do the same thing. Winning cases is immaterial--the aim is to maintain a constant level of stress to drive their opponents insane. Of course beyond harassment there is good old-fashioned murder: http://www.xenu.net/archive/WIR/wir10-05.html

L. Ron's ethics policy... http://www.gerryarmstrong.org/50grand/cult/lrh-ethics-policy.html

(Did you know that Jeb Bush has contributed to the CoS's coffers?)

I commend your efforts to maintain a guerilla war against such a diseased organisation. I wish that people were less dumb and could recognise obvious cons when they see them.

Originally posted by Bosse de Nage
Just look at their eyes and see if they're listening to you or being polite while plotting to convert you. And ask yourself exactly how the org has taken control of parts of LA (which parts by the way?)

Ever see the look in the eyes of a committed Jehovah's Witness? That combination of neediness and aggression, so nasty... Make you want to vomit down the front of that cheap suit.

You're telling me I'm talking to braindead, hypnotized zombies who will simply let me talk and talk and talk while they zone out?

You think under those circumstances I have no influence?! No, that's when I would start having fun! I should learn hypnosis for times like that.

Something that will wake up people like that is pointing out that the "fact" they just told you is incorrect, as L Ron Hubbard wrote in Dianetics (or whatever). Then you bust out your copy of their holy book and show them where they're wrong.

When they know that you know their religion better than they do, and still don't believe in their nonsense...well, that's influence.

Originally posted by AThousandYoung
When they know that you know their religion better than they do, and still don't believe in their nonsense...well, that's influence.

Coldly calculating reptilians rather than brain-wiped zombies. They probably consider you a brain-wiped zombie.

What's your success rate? Have you ever actually deconverted a scientologist?

Originally posted by Bosse de Nage
Sounds disgusting--a hive of sick minds...First thing to go is the dress sense. What cars do they drive? What businesses thrive in that precinct, or does nothing exactly thrive?

Lawsuits and harassments--standard cult tactics, Jim Jones and the People's Temple would do the same thing. Winning cases is immaterial--the aim is to maintain a constant le ation. I wish that people were less dumb and could recognise obvious cons when they see them.

I was mistaken. It's L. Ron Hubbard Way.

I don't know if they do drive. They have a helicopter. Dress sense is...interesting. They wear blue jumpsuits when moving stuff around, but when interacting with people they look like fraternity pledges. Collared shirt tucked in, dress pants, ties, etc.

My buddy's smoke shop went under in part to their disapproval of his selling drug paraphenalia. However they ALL smoke cigarettes. Apparently in their religion they become immune to lung cancer. Yes, I'm quite serious.

There is a Christian Church of some kind around there...Oh yeah, they have a business staffed entirely by Scientologists selling cosmetics up the street. There's a Thai Restaraunt...there's a bar called the "Grasshopper" nearby whose sign was vandalized at some point, removing the G and the R...probably not them though.

All I know is these Scientologists were always around, always making suggestions to the owner about what he should and should not sell, and then he started saying they were harassing him...and now he's gone. He's a Kurd, and I'm hearing rumors of FBI harassment. Who knows...the guy is a drama queen and lies (I don't like him) but the fact is he's gone, and I know those guys are just the kind of guys to bring a conspiracy scare story into reality.

Originally posted by Bosse de Nage
Coldly calculating reptilians rather than brain-wiped zombies. They probably consider you a brain-wiped zombie.

What's your success rate? Have you ever actually deconverted a scientologist?

I don't know. I haven't really tried. I'm not looking for big dramatic scenes. I just put the seed of doubt in them. That's a trick I learned from Christians...keep putting in your seeds in their minds and let them grow in their own good time. Or not. I'm taking the long view of things.

Originally posted by Bosse de Nage
Coldly calculating reptilians rather than brain-wiped zombies. They probably consider you a brain-wiped zombie.

What's your success rate? Have you ever actually deconverted a scientologist?

No, I talk to the ones who were the victims of the reptiles. The weak minded people who fund the Church simply for a sense of belonging and "being in the know". People who hate psychiatrists...probably because they've been treated by psychiatrists...

Originally posted by AThousandYoung
No, I talk to the ones who were the victims of the reptiles. The weak minded people who fund the Church simply for a sense of belonging and "being in the know". People who hate psychiatrists...probably because they've been treated by psychiatrists...

It's fascinating that anti-psychiatry is such a strong recruiting point for the CoS...

Here's "the man behind scientology" and Tom Cruise's best man...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Miscavige
(The wikipedia entry seems a bit too sanitised... a post from within the organisation: http://www.holysmoke.org/cos/petty-violence-at-gold-base.htm

http://www.gerryarmstrong.org/50grand/writings/letkeman-ltr-miscavige-2003-06-06.html

It just goes on and on, but this is entertaining... http://lermanet.com/exit/miscavige.htm )


Operation Snow-White: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Snow_White

The death of LRH (two days before the Challenger exploded) and what came after...
http://www.xenu.net/archive/hubbardcoroner/

The CoS's gulag, aka the RPF: http://www.skeptictank.org/hs/brainwas.htm

Originally posted by AThousandYoung
So I'm a troublemaker. So what?

And...she's irrational.

Do you take the reasoning of someone who makes trouble by being logical...or the irrational, hysteric one? Seriously...do the people who witnessed all this have more or less respect for the USA and her freedoms? Whether the US is the free-est country does not depend on whether you or she i ...[text shortened]... r already. Don't stress about her being more popular unless you're in Texas or something.

You seem to be taking this way too personally. Calm down.

Whether the US is the freest country in the world is purely academic. The debates point was, rather, that there are many places equally as free as the US.

She was being irrational, but in your statement above you assume a rational observer is making a judgement on her and my arguments. However, that is rarely the case.

A more likely case is that I am arguing with Theist A and Theist B is listening. No matter how rational I am, and how irrational Theist A is being, it is very unlikely that Theist B will be swayed by my arguments. Probably, they'll just side with their theistic comrade, and I'll be labelled an atheistic loony. No matter how badly Theist A acts, Theist B will more than likely ignore that behaviour with a shrug of their shoulders thinking, "well, no matter how wound up my mate got, that Atheist's arguments can be countered by a suitably good debater".

Unless Theist B is willing to accept that they might be fundamentally wrong in their beliefs, you may as well debate a brick wall.

Originally posted by scottishinnz
You seem to be taking this way too personally. Calm down.

Whether the US is the freest country in the world is purely academic. The debates point was, rather, that there are many places equally as free as the US.

She was being irrational, but in your statement above you assume a rational observer is making a judgement on her and my arguments. at they might be fundamentally wrong in their beliefs, you may as well debate a brick wall.

Were you ever a theist? I would wager that most atheists (and/or agnostics) in the Western world started out as theists. Why do you assume that all theists are irrational and might not be willing to accept that their present beliefs are fundamentally wrong?

Are you willing to accept the possibility that your beliefs are fundamentally wrong?

Originally posted by no1marauder
Were you ever a theist? I would wager that most atheists (and/or agnostics) in the Western world started out as theists. Why do you assume that all theists are irrational and might not be willing to accept that their present beliefs are fundamentally wrong?

Are you willing to accept the possibility that your beliefs are fundamentally wrong?

No. I was never a theist, at least not after the age of about 6.

I am not saying that all theists are irrational. However, those which do not accept the fundamental proposition that they may be wrong cannot be debated in a meaningful way, since they are not prepared to meaningfully accept that your points may be valid if they contradict the mantra which has been fed to them.

Of course, I accept that my position may be wrong, but I don't think it is (rather obviously).