Burn baby burn

Originally posted by jaywill
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No sir..You are absolutly wrong on that. Show me one ounce of proof of that.....You can't because it's your opinion.
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Tell me this. In your typical instruction books on going from house to house - Which do they advize you to teach first:

1.) There is no eternal punishment of a lake of fire or of a hell.

2.) The Trinity is of pagan origin[/b]

Your not even close. It's generally about God's kingdom and the hope for the new order "Paradise" to come which Jesus spoke of many times and that most people don't know about because of Satan and false religion confusing them, like yourself.

Originally posted by galveston75
I and the Father are one." (John 10:28-30)

Such a simple scripture to understand and you don't get it Jay. But in case you need help it means they are one in their plans, thoughts, and goals for the heaven and earth. No different then a government with all it's officials saying that have one goal in mind for it's citizens.

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Such a simple scripture to understand and you don't get it Jay. But in case you need help it means they are one in their plans, thoughts, and goals for the heaven and earth. No different then a government with all it's officials saying that have one goal in mind for it's citizens.
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That is beside the point. My point in refering to that passage was the matter of the assurance of eternal redemption and eternal life.

That was my main point.

Originally posted by jaywill
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Oh yeah your right. I forgot about that memo that was sent out to us all that we need more members so lets all say there is no hell to burn in and that will trick everyone into wanting to be a JW. Your dead on as usual!!!!
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Galvaston, I think your tone and approach are com ...[text shortened]... r belief about the eternal kingdom, in case someone decides that they want to suddenly rebel ?[/b]

I've never heard such a thing said.

Originally posted by galveston75
Your not even close. It's generally about God's kingdom and the hope for the new order "Paradise" to come which Jesus spoke of many times and that most people don't know about because of Satan and false religion confusing them, like yourself.

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Your not even close. It's generally about God's kingdom and the hope for the new order "Paradise" to come which Jesus spoke of many times and that most people don't know about because of Satan and false religion confusing them, like yourself.
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Sir, you're not talking to "most people" right now. You're talking to me.

Galveston, I know the Bible better than you do. Not boasting here. Okay, in what way am I misunderstanding the matter of Paradise ?

You say I am not close. You mean I am not close in understanding your position that the kingdom will be an everlasting Paradise on the earth while only 144,000 will be in heaven's government ?

All this I say according to the Watchtower teaching, you understand?

Originally posted by galveston75
I've never heard such a thing said.

Okay. I will take your word for it.

That is what this JW taught me anyway.

Originally posted by jaywill
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Your not even close. It's generally about God's kingdom and the hope for the new order "Paradise" to come which Jesus spoke of many times and that most people don't know about because of Satan and false religion confusing them, like yourself.
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Sir, you're not talking to "most ...[text shortened]... vernment ?

All this I say according to the Watchtower teaching, you understand?[/b]

The part of knowing the Bible? Your wrong at least in knowing it correctly. Sorry but no boasting here either.
And your correct with the last comment. But the kingdom is ruled from heaven where the heavenly spirits are, like Jehovah and Jesus. Prove we're wrong...

Originally posted by galveston75
The part of knowing the Bible? Your wrong at least in knowing it correctly. Sorry but no boasting here either.
And your correct with the last comment. But the kingdom is ruled from heaven where the heavenly spirits are, like Jehovah and Jesus. Prove we're wrong...

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But the kingdom is ruled from heaven where the heavenly spirits are, like Jehovah and Jesus. Prove we're wrong...
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Do you mean that in eternity future Jesus is not a man but only a "heavenly spirit"?

In incarnation God was clothed in humanity. And that humanity has been uplifted and glorified. He will never put it off. He will never put it away. He will never give up the nature of man which He became.

So today He is still "the man Christ Jesus" (1 Timothy 2:5)[/b]

"For there IS one God and one Mediator between God and men, the MAN Christ Jesus."

Try not to be distracted from my main point. Christ IS now the man Christ Jesus. So when you say "the heavenly spirits are ... like Jesus" you are wrong if you are saying that Jesus is not or will not be a man for eternity.

Psalm 72 is a Messianic prophecy speaking of Christ reigning on the earth. Solomon is a type of Christ as the real Son of David (Matt.1:1; 22:42). So the ultimate referant of the prophecy is not king Solomon the type but Jesus Christ the "greater ... Solomon". In this Psalm we see that the earth dwellers will come and bow down before Jesus Christ. So He is reigning on the earth where they are:

"And He will have dominion from sea to sea and from the River unto the ends of the earth. The desert dwellers will bow down before Him, and His enemies will lick the dust.

The kings of Tarshish and of the coastlands will pay tribute; The kings of Sheba and Seba will present gifts." (Psa. 72:8,-10)

Verse 11 says "All the kings will bow down before Him."

They do not go up to heaven to bow down to Christ. They will do it down here upon the earth.

Two errors then I notice in your sentence which I correct here:

1.) Christ is still a Man in eternity and not just a heavenly spirit.
2.) His reigning will be upon the earth.

The source of His authority can be from Heaven without Him having to stay in Heaven to reign.

Where do you see a passage saying that Christ, at the end of the millennium, will ascend up again to Heaven, not be a man, and be just a heavenly spirit there ?

Besides the Watchtower liturature, where is the Bible passage telling us of this ?

Originally posted by jaywill
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But the kingdom is ruled from heaven where the heavenly spirits are, like Jehovah and Jesus. Prove we're wrong...
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Do you mean that in eternity future Jesus is not a man but only a "heavenly spirit"?

In incarnation God was clothed in humanity. And that humanity has ...[text shortened]... esides the Watchtower liturature, where is the Bible passage telling us of this ?[/b]

Jay..I give up. Your right, Jesus is a man somewhere up in heaven walking on clouds. Your right so no point in arguing woth you. You win!!!!

How about the scripture that says every knee shall bow & confess that Christ is Lord? 10so that at the name of Jesus EVERY KNEE WILL BOW, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth,


Philippians 2:10





Manny

Originally posted by galveston75
Jay..I give up. Your right, Jesus is a man somewhere up in heaven walking on clouds. Your right so no point in arguing woth you. You win!!!!

In revelation the Lamb is seen as if slain! Who is this Lamb? Jesus. We can argue about if He is flesh or not but He still bares the scars! John saw this.




Manny

Originally posted by galveston75
Jay..I give up. Your right, Jesus is a man somewhere up in heaven walking on clouds. Your right so no point in arguing woth you. You win!!!!

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Jay..I give up. Your right, Jesus is a man somewhere up in heaven walking on clouds. Your right so no point in arguing woth you. You win!!!!
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First, we need to take this out of the realm of a personal contest. I fault myself for saying I knew the Bible better than you do. That was not necessary and perhaps I should not have said that. I apologize.

Second, I am not sure if this last post of yours is sarcastic. What we want is the truth to win us both. That is all I really care about.

You should not think that you can get off that easily. It is important to know WHY Jesus Christ is a God/man for eternity. It is important to know WHY it matters.

The eternal purpose of God is to mingle with man. The eternal purpose of God is to dispense Himself into man so that God and man, man and God, are blended, united, incorprated, and mingled together as one. The Head of this entity of God and man united a one entity is Jesus Christ the Firstborn Son of God. And God's eternal purpose planned by Him before the foundation of the world was that Christ would be the Firstborn God/man among many brothers:

"And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose.

Because those whom He foreknew He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the Firstborn among many brothers;

And those whom He predestinated, these He also called; and those whom He called, these He also justified; and those whom He justified, these He also glorified." (Romans 8:28-30)

God's purpose is that Christ would be the Firstborn Son of God among many brothers. He did not desire only citizens of a kingdom. He desired sons with His very life and nature.

Here again in Ephesians, we can see that before the foundation of the world, ie. before the creation of the universe, God chose a destiny for beforehand that some men and women, in the realm of Christ, would be sons of God before the Father:

"Even as He chose us in Him [Christ] before the foundation of the world to be holy and without blemish before Him in love, predestinating us unto SONSHIP through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will." (Eph. 1:4-6 my emphasis)

Sons of God in this New Testament sense means having the divine life of the Father. Christ is the Firstborn Son, the object of our worship and the Head of the Body of Christ. And the many sons are His brothers. Both the Head and the Body of the Head are the mingling of God and man.

Now on the little bit of sarcasm about Jesus being a man walking on clouds.

This is hypocritical for you to mock me in this way. You yourself teach that there will be 144,000 standing on Mt. Zion in the heavens from Revelation 14. So if they can stand on some heavenly Mt. Zion then why can't Jesus walk in heaven ?

"And I saw, and behold, the Lamb STANDING on Mount Zion, and with Him a hundred and forty-four thousand, having His name and the name of His Father written on their foreheads." (Rev. 14:1)

If it is argued that this Mount Zion is that which is on the earth, then I would ask WHY then is the sound of thier singing "out of heaven"?

"And I heard a voice OUT OF HEAVEN like the sound of many waters and like the sound of loud thunder; and the voice which I heard was like the sound of harpsingers playing on their hearts." (v.2)

So your own Jehovah's Witnesses very favorite passage speaks of people raptured to Heaven and standing there with Christ the Redeemer standing there. So it is rather hypocritical for you to mock me about Jesus walking around in the clouds.

The physics of this I do not pretend to understand, nor do I much care. Christ was seen "standing at the right hand of God" by Stephen as they stoned him (Acts 7:56)

"And he said, Behold, I see the heavens opened up and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God."

So, so what if the man Jesus is standing, or walking in heaven? Did you not notice that He comes sitting on a cloud?

"And I saw, and behold, there was a white cloud, and on the cloud One like the Son of Man sitting, having a golden crown on His head and a sharp sickle in His hand." (Rev. 14:14)

Now I admit that this is largly symbolic. But to what degree is not clearly spelled out. Christ ascended to heaven in a cloud (Acts 1:9). And Scripture says He will physically return to earth the same way (Acts 1:11).

"And when He had said these things, while they were looking on, He was lifted up, and a CLOUD took Him away from their sight.

And while they were looking intently into heaven as He went, behold, two men in white clothing stood beside them.

Who also said, Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into heaven? This Jesus, who has been taken up from you into heaven, will come in the same way as you beheld Him going into heaven." (Acts 1:9-11)

Your mock is not against me. It is aimed at the Bible which you are suppose to revere.

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You win!!!!
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Galveston, we, you and I, with everyone else, is subdued by the Word of God.

The winner and still champion is the Word of God. We all should just let the Bible "win" and say "Amen".

This is not a personal contest.

Originally posted by galveston75
No he said that they were let in and allowed to mix their pagen bliefs and any "history books" you'll find say the same thing...Sorry, I'm not making this up but that's the truth about the Catholic religion.

I don't know about that, but just because things were "mixed in" doesn't mean it's not Catholic, for instance the Wetern World had a lot too do with Catholic architecture. Santa Claus (The Christ Child) or St. Nicholas has some pagan "stuff" mixed in it for instance magic (the reindeer) but that doesn't mean it's not Catholic, Catholic writer's have used mthyology to make a point or use it for symbols.

Originally posted by daniel58
I don't know about that, but just because things were "mixed in" doesn't mean it's not Catholic, for instance the Wetern World had a lot too do with Catholic architecture. Santa Claus (The Christ Child) or St. Nicholas has some pagan "stuff" mixed in it for instance magic (the reindeer) but that doesn't mean it's not Catholic, Catholic writer's have used mthyology to make a point or use it for symbols.

So when there are scriptures that say such things as in 2Cor 6:14-17. Rev 18:4,5, Gal 5:9 would you still think that it's ok to have even a little paganism in your beliefs or building designs, things your pray to, idols, etc?

Originally posted by buckky
Who among us could stand to watch anyone burn in agony ? No matter how bad the person was. Let's say Hitler for example. I could not stand to watch any other human be in constant torment regardless of the crime. Just on a simple human level I feel most feel the same way. Only a sadist could conduct such punishment. Maybe the Christian version of Hell needs to ...[text shortened]... ybe that's over the top also. Anything but the Burning forever thing would be and improvement.

There are many ways God could have orchestrated the universe. I, as well as most everyone else, probably has things they woul;d change about it. Fortunately, none of us are God, and He gets the final say. Amd He decided that hell fire was adequate punishment for some individuals.
I don't know if we who do not suffer this horrible fate will be allowed to watch the burnings of the others. I have no desire to watch them all, but I can't say that I'd turn my head from a few choice eternal executions---at least for a bit.