Calling out galveston75

Originally posted by twhitehead
There are also day old babies, aborted fetus', who simply haven't had time to build up memories or much cognitive function.
For those that believe a soul is imparted at conception, the question then is whether identical twins share a soul.
Then there is multiple personalities, major brain injuries resulting in personality change, various forms of mental illness etc.

Thank God, it is not up to us to sort this all out.

HalleluYah !!! Praise the Lord! Glory be to God! Holy! Holy! Holy!

Originally posted by RJHinds
The following is part of what the apostle Paul wrote to the Corintihian Church about salvation.

For we know that if our earthly house, this tent, is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed with our habitation which is from heaven, if indeed, ha ross. However, he may find himself naked with little reward for what he has done here on earth.

I'm not really sure how this addresses the question that I posed to checkbaiter. You say that any S1 that accepts Christ will map over to some S2 in heaven. But, suppose, S1 nevertheless has extreme character failings (suppose S1 is, say, Hitler or some such). Will the associated S2 exhibit similar character? If not, what reason do I have to believe that this S1 and S2 are one and the same person?

Also, based on the text you quoted (particularly the lines such as "We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body..." ), it seems that you are probably committed to some conception of the person as, at bottom, a disembodied soul or some such. Again, this is fundamentally a different view from galvo's, which prompted my inquiry. Again, my problem with such a view as your soul is that I completely fail to understand how such a thing could comprise a person, given that the properties normally associated with personhood, including psychological properties, seem to require a body. Do you have any actual evidence whatsoever that psychological capacities can exist absent some body?

Just to be clear, you do understand how the different views here in play differ, right? You seem committed to the idea that the person can persist absent a body. Galvo is not committed to this, since he maintains that person S1 ceases to exist at natural death, but is somehow reinstantiated later as S2, which he claims is one and the same person as S1, when God creates S2 in bodily form from memory. You, on the other hand, seem to think S1 persists regardless of whether S1 has a body or not.

So, again, my question for galvo is what reasons do I have to think S2 and S1 are numerically identical. My question for you would be what reasons do I have to think the psychological capacities we normally attach to personhood can exist in the absence of a body.

Originally posted by LemonJello
I'm not really sure how this addresses the question that I posed to checkbaiter. You say that any S1 that accepts Christ will map over to some S2 in heaven. But, suppose, S1 nevertheless has extreme character failings (suppose S1 is, say, Hitler or some such). Will the associated S2 exhibit similar character? If not, what reason do I have to believe t sychological capacities we normally attach to personhood can exist in the absence of a body.

You apparently, did not read this part of the quote I posted.

Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new. Now all things are of God, who has reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ, and has given us the ministry of reconciliation, that is, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them, and has committed to us the word of reconciliation.

(2 Corinthians 5:17-19 NKJV)

Did you get that "he is a NEW creation" and not the SAME as he was before accepting Christ. In answer to your last question, please note that Paul writes before this, "For we walk by faith, not by sight."

Originally posted by RJHinds
You apparently, did not read this part of the quote I posted.

Therefore, [b]if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new. Now all things are of God, who has reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ, and has given us the ministry of reconciliation, that is, that God was in Christ re st question, please note that Paul writes before this, "For we walk by faith, not by sight."[/b]

I am not really sure how this addresses my question. This just pushes the problem back a step. After all, persons accept Christ in this manner before natural death. So, instead of S1 --> death --> S2, now we would have S0 --> S1 (the "new creation" after acceptance of Christ) --> death --> S2. My question, still, is what reason do I have to think S1 and S2 are one and the same person if they potentially have radically different dispositional sets? After all, you're still committed to the idea that even believers S1 can have extreme character failings, right? So, you haven't addressed the actual question.

I also see you failed to address my other question regarding if you have any actual evidence for the idea that psychological capacities can exist in the absence of a body, which, unless I am mis-reading your position, is something that you assume. (I mean, you purported to address this question by some quote of Paul, but I completely fail to see the actual relevance.)

Originally posted by RJHinds
You apparently, did not read this part of the quote I posted.

Therefore, [b]if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new. Now all things are of God, who has reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ, and has given us the ministry of reconciliation, that is, that God was in Christ re st question, please note that Paul writes before this, "For we walk by faith, not by sight."[/b]

And by the way, this would seem to raise yet another problem. If S0 and S1 are not the same person; if, as you claim, S1 is simply a new creation and a distinct person from S0; then by accepting Christ, S0 is in fact bringing about his own demise. Why would one want to do that? What motivation can S0 have to set these wheels in motion by accepting Christ, leading to his own cessation of existence?

Or by saying S1 is a "new creation" you do not mean to say that S1 and S0 are distinct persons; just that it brings about some changes within the same person? In that case, you still haven't answered my original question. Or are you actually saying that you think after S1 accepts Christ he can have no more serious failings of character? That would seem to be blatantly empirically false.

Originally posted by LemonJello
Here is a question I have for you. Suppose some "heathen" S1 who is strongly disposed toward heathen ways accepts Christ as his savior on his deathbed right before he croaks. According to you, this person will end up in heaven as S2, right? But will S2 be disposed toward heathen ways? If not, why the disconnect in disposition if, according to you, S1 ...[text shortened]... ch disposition upon creating S2, then why isn't S2 simply a new person, distinct from any S1?

He will have repented while still as S1, so as S2 he will have a perfectly renewed mind. That is, he will know the truth which set him free.

Originally posted by checkbaiter
He will have repented while still as S1, so as S2 he will have a perfectly renewed mind. That is, he will know the truth which set him free.

Okay, but if God creates S2 with a "perfectly renewed" mind relative to the mind of S1, then why should we think S1 and S2 are one and the same person?

Of course, I realize that a person can change and acquire different properties; new knowledge; different dispositions; etc; and that these changes can be in many instances largely or wholly exogenously brought about. However, this generally happens over time, such that there are continuous chains of strong psychological connectedness that helps to make sense of the fact that this person remains one and the same person even though the person undergoes significant change in his psychology. At least to my mind, such overlappings psychological chains are important for making sense of personal identity.

However, in the case you are describing (pursuant to my hypothetical question), I fail to see how there are any overlapping chains of psychological connectedness that connects S1 and S2; thus I fail to see why I should think they are one and the same person. If God has created S2 with this different "renewed" mind as you claim, why isn't S2 simply a new person distinct from S1?

Originally posted by LemonJello
I am not really sure how this addresses my question. This just pushes the problem back a step. After all, persons accept Christ in this manner before natural death. So, instead of S1 --> death --> S2, now we would have S0 --> S1 (the "new creation" after acceptance of Christ) --> death --> S2. My question, still, is what reason do I have to think S1 a ...[text shortened]... ess this question by some quote of Paul, but I completely fail to see the actual relevance.)

I can only provide you with more of what is wriiten in the Holy Bible. It is not scientific proof and that is why I believe Paul included the necessity to walk by faith, as one female poster continually informs me and other posters. There are some things that we must believe by faith and faith alone. We have been provided with evidence of the resurrection of Christ and it is on each one of us to believe or not. So, as I see it, what you are asking is based all on belief and that can only be answered by walking by faith.

Originally posted by LemonJello
Okay, but if God creates S2 with a "perfectly renewed" mind relative to the mind of S1, then why should we think S1 and S2 are one and the same person?

Of course, I realize that a person can change and acquire different properties; new knowledge; different dispositions; etc; and that these changes can be in many instances largely or wholly exogenousl ...[text shortened]... s different "renewed" mind as you claim, why isn't S2 simply a new person distinct from S1?

God who created the Universe, including the Earth, man and every living thing upon it, should have no problem bringing back a person with a new glorified body, intact with the same self conscience they had before. Also, since He is good and kind and loving, anyone with any deformity, illness, etc., should be remade whole.
God, who promises in Ephesians that it will take all eternity to show His love for us, is someone we can expect nothing short of miraculous glorified bodies.
I will not put Him in a box and pretend to know all His mind, I can trust His Goodness and Wisdom and Power to do what will probably make me shout for joy.

Originally posted by LemonJello
In another thread I posed the following question to you. You exhibited some concern that it would be taking the thread off-course, so I started a new thread.

[quote]According to your beliefs, person S1 dies at natural death and nothing of S1 survives this. Then, sometime later, God creates a "resurrected" person S2 that based on His memory is supposed ...[text shortened]... over time. Honestly, I don't understand what you think makes S2 numerically identical to S1.

Sorry for not getting back with you. I've been sick the last 4 days and had a prostate biopcy done today. So not feeling good but will be back in force in a couple days....

Originally posted by galveston75
Sorry for not getting back with you. I've been sick the last 4 days and had a prostate biopcy done today. So not feeling good but will be back in force in a couple days....

No worries at all. I am sorry to hear you're not feeling well, and I wish you a speedy recovery to good health. And I certainly hope the biopsy result is negative!

Originally posted by checkbaiter
God who created the Universe, including the Earth, man and every living thing upon it, should have no problem bringing back a person with a new glorified body, intact with the same self conscience they had before. Also, since He is good and kind and loving, anyone with any deformity, illness, etc., should be remade whole.
God, who promises in Ephesians ...[text shortened]... d, I can trust His Goodness and Wisdom and Power to do what will probably make me shout for joy.

God who created the Universe, including the Earth, man and every living thing upon it, should have no problem bringing back a person with a new glorified body, intact with the same self conscience they had before.

Yes, I agree that should follow from His supposedly being all-powerful. But, that's not what you are actually claiming, remember? You didn't claim that S2 has the same self conscience as S1. What you claimed is that S2 has a "perfectly renewed" mind relative to S1. And since my hypothetical stipulates that S1 has many failings of conscience and character, this means that S2 and S1 do NOT have the same self conscience.

I am not claiming that God cannot bring it about an S2 that matches S1 in mentality. I agree that should follow from His supposed attributes. Rather, I am probing the waters of your own claims and commitments, which hold that S2 and S1 differ substantially in mentality. And I am inquiring how this is consistent with your other claim that S2 and S1 are one and the same person.

Originally posted by RJHinds
I can only provide you with more of what is wriiten in the Holy Bible. It is not scientific proof and that is why I believe Paul included the necessity to walk by faith, as one female poster continually informs me and other posters. There are some things that we must believe by faith and faith alone. We have been provided with evidence of the resurrection ...[text shortened]... t, what you are asking is based all on belief and that can only be answered by walking by faith.

Okay. But I am not interested in "walking by faith" on such matters. I am interested in reasons and considerations that confer actual understanding of the subject matter.

Originally posted by LemonJello
Okay. But I am not interested in "walking by faith" on such matters. I am interested in reasons and considerations that confer actual understanding of the subject matter.

But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.

(Hebrews 11:6 NKJV)

Thanks to all that wished me well. I get my results back on the 29th and I'm sure all will be fine.
Anyway, whew, lots of thoughts here about life and death and who or what goes where at death and with the possiblity of life given again given by God in the future, it seems deep and confusing.
So with all these opinions and some probable misunderstandings of these scriptures on this, is it really that hard to figure out? Is there a real answer in the Bible?
Some scriptures seem to say that at death all life ends. No thoughts, no thinking, no plans, nothing but waiting in in Gods memory to be resurrected to life again.
Others seem to say that something lives on and goes to heaven if good and hell if not.
Am I covering it all pretty good?
Can all these thoughts be correct?