21 Apr 13
Originally posted by LemonJelloSorry for the delay.
In another thread I posed the following question to you. You exhibited some concern that it would be taking the thread off-course, so I started a new thread.
[quote]According to your beliefs, person S1 dies at natural death and nothing of S1 survives this. Then, sometime later, God creates a "resurrected" person S2 that based on His memory is supposed ...[text shortened]... over time. Honestly, I don't understand what you think makes S2 numerically identical to S1.
All I can do is refer you to the Bible and ones who were resurrected in the past.
One needs to remember that all life comes from God. He is the "giver of life and the one who takes it away".
This meaning of this is in the absolute sense. He can create life from nothing and he can take it away to never exist again. No one in the universe can do that but God.
Now in those examples in the Bible those people were dead such as Lazarus. The Bible says nothing about some part of him still exisiting in some conscience state nor did he even mention that he was still living somewhere else even in spirit form "looking down on us" as some believe. He were simply "dead". So he did not exist at all anywhere during his death.
Now God by way of Jesus resurrected Lazarus back to life. To all there, even Jesus, it was Lazarus as he was before with no mention that anything about him being changed in mind, conscienceness, personality, mannerisms, age, etc. And that was the clear case of the others that were resurrected back to life during that time.
So with God and creating life whether it is a completely new creation or bringing one back to life that had died in the past, there is nothing he can't do.
So no...nothing has to survive or somehow remain from the person that died in the past in order for God to remember every single thing about them. The Bible says "that he knows every hair on out heads". It also says "he has a name for every star in the heavens".
These are no doubt simple examples that we can slightly understand about his mind. He will have no problem in remembering each human that has died and will bring them back if that is his wish.
One reason this is misunderstood is because of the beliefs of paganistic after life teachings for humans in some firey place of torment and not having the clear understandings of who really goes to heaven and who lives on the earth.
21 Apr 13
3 edits
Originally posted by LemonJelloWhen I grows from a baby to a child to a teenager to a young adult to a middle age adult to an old fart like I am today, my mentally has changed along the way, but I am still considered the same person by those who have known me through those stages of life. I don't remember everything that happened to me in my life time, but I consider myself the same person. I believe God will restore good memories and delete the bad, so that I will be happy being my new self.
[b]God who created the Universe, including the Earth, man and every living thing upon it, should have no problem bringing back a person with a new glorified body, intact with the same self conscience they had before.
Yes, I agree that should follow from His supposedly being all-powerful. But, that's not what you are actually claiming, remember? Y ing how this is consistent with your other claim that S2 and S1 are one and the same person.[/b]
So I imagine there is some similarity there with the person we are here on earth today and the person we shall become at the resurrection. But once our minds are renewed by Christ we become new creatures, both in mind and body.
I don't know if G75 sees it that way or not. However, I believe it will be something like that, but I can not be sure. I am only going on my own experience and what I believe the Holy Bible is saying about the subject. I have no absolute proof that I can offer you. But I suspect it will be better than we can imagine anyway.
21 Apr 13
1 edit
Originally posted by galveston75This is truth mixed with error. Jesus was raised in bodily form as was predicted by Jesus in John 2:19-21 and revealed in Luke 19. If Christ did not rise bodily then our faith is wothless says Paul in 1 Corinthians 15:17. How can we think we can be resurrected with physical bodies, if the above is not true and Jesus himself was not resurrected bodily? The following is what Job writes:
Here is a good description of the resurrection that will happen in the future...
http://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1102005137?q=resurrection&p=par
For I know that my Redeemer lives,
And He shall stand at last on the earth;
And after my skin is destroyed, this I know,
That in my flesh I shall see God,
Whom I shall see for myself,
And my eyes shall behold, and not another.
How my heart yearns within me!
(Job 19:25-27 NKJV)
21 Apr 13
1 edit
Originally posted by RJHindsI'm not interested in pleasing God, especially when I have no reasons to think God exists in the first place.
But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.
(Hebrews 11:6 NKJV)
I'm interested in what reasons Galvo, you, checkbaiter, etc, have to offer that make sense of the idea that S1 and S2 are one and the same person. Like I already said, I am not interested in approaching this through 'faith'; I am interested in reasons and considerations that would confer actual understanding.
21 Apr 13
Originally posted by galveston75If I am reading you correctly, you are stating that S2 will have exactly the same mentality as S1 (no change in disposition or attitudes or personality, etc), correct?
Sorry for the delay.
All I can do is refer you to the Bible and ones who were resurrected in the past.
One needs to remember that all life comes from God. He is the "giver of life and the one who takes it away".
This meaning of this is in the absolute sense. He can create life from nothing and he can take it away to never exist again. No one in t ...[text shortened]... ing the clear understandings of who really goes to heaven and who lives on the earth.
21 Apr 13
2 edits
Originally posted by RJHindsWhen I grows from a baby to a child to a teenager to a young adult to a middle age adult to an old fart like I am today, my mentally has changed along the way, but I am still considered the same person by those who have known me through those stages of life. I don't remember everything that happened to me in my life time, but I consider myself the same person.
When I grows from a baby to a child to a teenager to a young adult to a middle age adult to an old fart like I am today, my mentally has changed along the way, but I am still considered the same person by those who have known me through those stages of life. I don't remember everything that happened to me in my life time, but I consider myself the same pers olute proof that I can offer you. But I suspect it will be better than we can imagine anyway.
Yes, I agree. But, as I already stated, in this case your mentality changes over time, such that there are strong overlapping chains of psychological connectedness that help to explain why you remain one and the same person over time.
I believe God will restore good memories and delete the bad, so that I will be happy being my new self.
Here, the case may be different relative to the above.
So I imagine there is some similarity there with the person we are here on earth today and the person we shall become at the resurrection. But once our minds are renewed by Christ we become new creatures, both in mind and body.
Fine, then unless I am misreading you, you are biting the bullet and saying that S2 and S1 are not one and same person. Correct?
Okay, but as I already said, this opens a new can of worms. For instance, what motivation can S1 have in this scenario? S1 permanently ceases to exist at natural death.
What you're describing is not a case where those persons alive today get resurrected back to life. Rather, God just creates new persons down the road. Why should we care about this? This isn't "good news" for anyone alive today. If you're right, those alive today will simply permanently cease to exist at natural death.
22 Apr 13
Originally posted by LemonJelloIt would have to be the same person on every level or that person would not be resurrected. Right?
If I am reading you correctly, you are stating that S2 will have exactly the same mentality as S1 (no change in disposition or attitudes or personality, etc), correct?
22 Apr 13
3 edits
Originally posted by LemonJelloI think it will be good news if when we are resurrected that the bad and evil part of out personality is discarded and only the good survives into the next life. Perhaps it is true that we are not exactly the same. However, do you really want to live through eternity and not be able to control your evil urges. Wouldn't it be good news if you did not even have those evil urges?
[b]When I grows from a baby to a child to a teenager to a young adult to a middle age adult to an old fart like I am today, my mentally has changed along the way, but I am still considered the same person by those who have known me through those stages of life. I don't remember everything that happened to me in my life time, but I consider myself the sam f you're right, those alive today will simply permanently cease to exist at natural death.
Jesus seems to say something like this when he said, “If your hand or foot causes you to sin, cut it off and cast it from you. It is better for you to enter into life lame or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet, to be cast into the everlasting fire. And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and cast it from you. It is better for you to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes, to be cast into hell fire."
(Matthew 19:8-9 NKJV)
The apostle John writes, If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.
(1 John 1: 8-10 NKJV)
Isn't it good news to know that you will be cleansed from all unrighteousness and will never have the urges to sin again in your new resurrected body?
22 Apr 13
Originally posted by galveston75Pretty much, I would think so, yes. But then your "earthly paradise" is going to be run amok with the same sorts of characters as earth now. If, say, S1 is disposed toward child porn addiction, then so is S2. You're okay with such implications? What's so paradisal about your earthly paradise?
It would have to be the same person on every level or that person would not be resurrected. Right?
22 Apr 13
1 edit
Originally posted by RJHinds
I think it will be good news if when we are resurrected that the bad and evil part of out personality is discarded and only the good survives into the next life. Perhaps it is true that we are not exactly the same. However, do you really want to live through eternity and not be able to control your evil urges. Wouldn't it be good news if you did not even all unrighteousness and will never have the urges to sin again in your new resurrected body?
Isn't it good news to know that you will be cleansed from all unrighteousness and will never have the urges to sin again in your new resurrected body?
You seem to be claiming that S1 and S2 are one and the same person even though S2 is renewed and cleansed and whatnot relative to S1. But, I don't agree. You have provided no actual reasons to think that S1 and S2 are numerically identical. I think S1 and S2 are distinct persons. Under the scenario you describe, the person S1 is just ceases to exist at natural death; and S2, as you claim, is a "new creature", a new person. So, how is that good news for S1?
22 Apr 13
Originally posted by LemonJelloWell not really. The Bible says the wicked will be removed from the earth at armegeddon.
Pretty much, I would think so, yes. But then your "earthly paradise" is going to be run amok with the same sorts of characters as earth now. If, say, S1 is disposed toward child porn addiction, then so is S2. You're okay with such implications? What's so paradisal about your earthly paradise?
What the process is according to the scriptures is that all that are alive at the onset of armegeddon will be either allowed to live on into that 1000 year period that Jesus will be ruling, or will not survive that event because of being judged not acceptable to be worthy of that future.
This is why God has allowed time to pass in order to give all humans alive today the chance to either serve him or not.
Then after some time the resurrection will begin of all in the grave that have died. This is where the scriptures state "a resurrection of the righteous and of the unrighteous" will happen.
Remember the Bible says that "the wages of sin is death" so all that have died in the past have paid for their previous sins by dying.
Now all the resurrected ones will have a second chance to choose to serve God in a now satanless world.
Then at the end of that thousand years satan will be let loose for a short time to test all that have been resurrected one finale time.
Then after a short time God will have satan destroyed forever or as the Bible describes it in, "The Lake of Fire" along with anyone who wishes to be his followers and not accept God's ways.
So yes in a way there could be during that thousand year period some who may still have a bad heart and want to do harm. Even some who have been resurrected. But it would be different then as now Jesus is ruling as King with the backing of his Father Jehovah. And this is where one has to have faith in them both that however they deal with those situations it will be for the good of mankind in general. If a situation is really bad, who knows they may choose to remove that person. But one has to remember that satan will not be a factor during that 1000 years and hopefully that will temper anyone with a bad heart.
Only God knows how he will deal with that.
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22 Apr 13
Originally posted by galveston75I think what this shows is that during the thousand years without Satan, man lives in harmony. There is peace, but after Satan is loosed, man is quickly tempted, changed. I think what this shows is man's basic need for God.
Then at the end of that thousand years satan will be let loose for a short time to test all that have been resurrected one finale time.
Then after a short time God will have satan destroyed forever or as the Bible describes it in, "The Lake of Fire" along with anyone who wishes to be his followers and not accept God's ways.
So yes in a way there c ...[text shortened]... me who may still have a bad heart and want to do harm. Even some who have been resurrected. .
22 Apr 13
Originally posted by galveston75Thank you for your clarifications in this thread. I understand better now how according to your view it makes sense to say S1 and S2 are the same person.
Well not really. The Bible says the wicked will be removed from the earth at armegeddon.
What the process is according to the scriptures is that all that are alive at the onset of armegeddon will be either allowed to live on into that 1000 year period that Jesus will be ruling, or will not survive that event because of being judged not acceptable to b ...[text shortened]... ly that will temper anyone with a bad heart.
Only God knows how he will deal with that.
Your view seems more self-consistent in this respect than what RJHinds has described.
22 Apr 13
Originally posted by checkbaiterWell hopefully it will be as harmonious as possible. It will be a time of great inlightenment by God to all alive and especially to all that will be resurrected. Remember that many will have never been exposed to God at all because of their location and culture in the past. And many may still not want that even after being resurrected and given a new chance. One would think that if given a second chance with a new life they would willingly have the want a desire to learn and follow God, but we have no way of knowing that now.
I think what this shows is that during the thousand years without Satan, man lives in harmony. There is peace, but after Satan is loosed, man is quickly tempted, changed. I think what this shows is man's basic need for God.
So, no satan to disrupt things, but..we will still be imperfect. So all will still have that over our heads until satan is finally destroyed with all his influance and trickeries.